Moderators: trustno1
Topic Closed|
Go
|
New
|
Find
|
Notify
|
Tools
|
|
member Wicked Awesome Member  |
BBF better check in tonight or we'll think that meeting in the lobby was an ambush.
|
|||
|
|
Wicked Awesome Member |
pegasus_x: Thanks to you for your solicitude, and to XQueequeg likewise for thinking of my safety in the lobby, and to govtlawyer for replying to me.
This new job at least for right now is gonna take a HUGE chunk outta my online time. So if I don't respond to everyone's points ... it's not that I'm ignoring anyone or trying to wiggle my way out of answering someone's point. Quite frankly, I don't even have time to read all the way through the posts in this discussion! If someone wants a reply to one of your points in particular, it might help to emphasize that one particular point and address it succinctly rather than branch off into all kinds of subtopics. I know the rest of you are putting much time and effort into a rich and deep conversation, and apologize that at this point in my life, I simply can't keep up with the sheer volume of words in this discussion! BBF |
|||
|
|
Wicked Awesome Member |
govtlawyer: Regarding your quote of John 3:16 "that whoever believes in him [Jesus Christ as Savior]should not perish but HAVE eternal life." .....
Grammatically, this phrase is in the subjunctive mode rather than the indicative. Thus, the correct interpretation is, "that whoever believes in him [Jesus Christ as Savior] should not perish but SHOULD HAVE eternal life." As for where you say, "1 Cor 10:11-12 does not say that we can lose our salvation. Looking at the entire chapter it is seen that Paul is addressing the "brethern" i.e. brothers and sisters in Christ, and warning them to resist temptations and sinful ways so we don't fall into them. Fall does not mean "lose salvation." ..... Yes, as a matter of fact, fall DOES mean "lose salvation." Since you've called my interpretation into question here without giving me a reason for calling it into question, please justify your interpretation. ----- (If you already have given me the explanation I'm asking for in another post, I've failed to see it due to my not having time to read all the posts. In which case, I'd like to ask you the favor of please copying and pasting that explanation into a new message addressed to me. Thanks for bearing with me!) When you say, "If we could lose our salvation then 1) Christ would have to be crucified again to save us again; and 2) He would be ridiculed for dying to purchase a salvation but not making adequate provision to preserve that same salvation." ..... This is quite frankly one of the most bizarre things I've ever heard. OF COURSE CHRIST DOES NOT NEED TO BE CRUCIFIED TO SAVE US AGAIN should we fall into serious sin! What needs to happen again is for the sinner to REPENT AGAIN. Simple as that. BBF [This message has been edited by Buffalo Bills Fan (edited 03-26-2001).] |
|||
|
|
Wicked Awesome Member |
govtlawyer: How did you interpret the following? (from an earlier post I made)
"Also, Paul said, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in His kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" " What exactly would we be cut off from, do you think? What makes more sense here? Being "cut off" from the kingdom of heaven (losing our salvation) ... or being "cut off" as in, say, no longer being invited to your church's pot luck supper? BBF [This message has been edited by Buffalo Bills Fan (edited 03-26-2001).] |
|||
|
|
Wicked Awesome Member |
XQueequeg:
WHOA !!!!! Please let me clear up a misunderstanding before it gets any further! It's quite clear from your following words that you've misunderstood me: XQUEEQUEG POSTS: >> I made my comments in response to BBF's hypothetical situation, that God might destroy us in order to keep us from committing a sin so great that he could not save us from it. << No, no, no, I never said that! Of Course there is no sin so great that God cannot save us from it! God can forgive the worst sin in the world. What I'm talking about is a sinner who dies unrepentant ... someone who CHOOSES not to be forgiven. God never forces His Mercy on anyone. Yes, God CAN save us. The question is, do we COOPERATE with His grace, or do we spurn it? As for the topic of "the unpardonable sin," also called "the sin against the Holy Spirit," XQUEEQUEG WRITES: >> Let me rephrase that there is no unforgivable sin except that of willfully and deliberately refusing to accept the freely given grace, ... once a person does accept God's grace, then his sin is no longer unforgivable. << Would it surprise you to know I agree with you? Of course, you probably interpret the words differently than I do. My standpoint is that when a Christian sins, that Christian needs to accept God's grace ... and if that person sins AGAIN, he/she needs to accept God's grace again. Yes, Jesus died once for all ... mere humans though sin more than once (in my experience) ... and thus need to draw more than once on the once-for-all sacrifice of Jesus which quite mercifully is always there for us. Final point. XQUEEQUEG WRITES: >>I can find no Biblical evidence for the idea of living from moment to moment in fear of winning the anti-lottery << Yes, I know that the Bible quite distinctly contains advice to "Be not afraid." and comforts us in the knowledge that "Love casts out fear." ..... still, the passage I quoted remains, "I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling." People may prefer to question that passage or poke fun at it if they dislike acknowledging the FACT of its presence in the Bible ... but still, there it is, in black and white, in the Bible. As is, "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." Are we as Christians supposed to spend our whole lives quaking in our boots at the thought of God's justice? Certainly not, because we have assurance of God's mercy, as Paul says, "provided you remain in His kindness." Hope this clarifies things! BBF [This message has been edited by Buffalo Bills Fan (edited 03-26-2001).] |
|||
|
|
Wicked Awesome Member |
govtlawyer: I do not accept Dave Hunt as an authority on the Bible.
As for where you say, "Mixing grace and works is like trying to mix oil and water - you can't do it," I would reply that while we are saved by grace, the Bible itself mixes faith and works. [Please note that I am defining "grace" differently than I am defining "faith."] GRACE = God's life in us FAITH = belief/acceptance of God's Word I don't have time tonight to go back and look up all the relevant verses (but I once listened to a radio show which listed quite a good number of examples so I know they exist). In any case, here's one Bible verse which shows the importance of works: "Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 7:21)" This doesn't sound like being saved by faith alone. To "do the will" of the Heavenly Father = taking action = works. BBF [This message has been edited by Buffalo Bills Fan (edited 03-26-2001).] |
|||
|
|
member Wicked Awesome Member |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Buffalo Bills Fan:
govt:"If we could lose our salvation then 1) Christ would have to be crucified again to save us again; and 2) He would be ridiculed for dying to purchase a salvation but not making adequate provision to preserve that same salvation." ..... BBF:This is quite frankly one of the most bizarre things I've ever heard. OF COURSE CHRIST DOES NOT NEED TO BE CRUCIFIED TO SAVE US AGAIN should we fall into serious sin! What needs to happen again is for the sinner to REPENT AGAIN. Simple as that. BBF, I couldn't agree more. --------------------------- Here are a few more verses regarding losing salvation: Matthew 24:13 But he who stands firm to the end will be saved. John 15:1-6 I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 2 Peter 2:20-22 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 1 Cor. 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! Rev 2:10 Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. Rev 3:11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. [This message has been edited by pegasus_x (edited 03-27-2001).] [This message has been edited by pegasus_x (edited 03-27-2001).] |
|||
|
|
member Wicked Awesome Member |
quote: Grace, faith, and works. BBF, Maybe some of these are the verses you referred to: Matt 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. John 14: 12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. Acts 26:20 I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds. Romans 2:6-8 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 1 Timothy 6:18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. Titus 2:7 In everything set them an example by doing what is good. Titus 3:8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. Hebrews 10: 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. James 2:14-26 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. [This message has been edited by pegasus_x (edited 03-27-2001).] [This message has been edited by pegasus_x (edited 03-27-2001).] |
|||
|
|
Member |
This is truly a fascinating discussion. I don't mean to put words in anyone's mouth, keyboard
 , but I feel that BBF, pegasus are arguing a different point than govtlawyer. The way I read it Govt's interpretation is that the only way to lose salvation, fall, is if you no longer accept His grace, regardless of your deeds. Even if you sin, as long as you believe in the Lord you will be saved. - I still do not then understand what then is the consequence of sin! Govt you had mentioned earlier how some people's actions, eg adultery could lead to them being ostracized and hence that is punishment for their deeds. I do believe that if someone repents AND tries to make amends that they have paid for their misdeeds. However,in many cases there is no consequence that has any significant impact on them. They live a happy selfish life. People affected and punished are usually innocent bystanders - pedophiles and children being a case in point. Does the absolute belief that Jesus is your saviour give you carte blanche to commit every imaginable atrocity on humanity, but still be saved and go to heaven? What incentive is their for a human to do good deeds if a simple belief in God is going to absolve you of any repurcussions of your actions? Maybe I need to understand what you mean by the acceptance of His grace. Is it simply blind faith that Jesus is your saviour, completely separate from how you live your life? Or is acceptance of Jesus a way of life, involving norms and rules of behaviour, beyond simply believing in Him? I can see which side BBF and Peg are on, but I would appreciate further clarification of your point of view, Govt. |
|||
|
Wicked Awesome Member |
XQUIRE, you asked about having "carte blanche" to sin. In my post of 3/21, I said this:
So, you may wonder, can believers use this eternal security as an "excuse" to live as we please, to commit the grossest of sins, because we are sure of heaven in the end? Absolutely not, or as the Apostle Paul said, "God forbid!" Nor does this belief encourage one to live in sin because if we know we cannot be lost then we have no incentive for living a holy life. Why? As Dave Hunt says, "Because the love for the One who saved us is the greatest and only acceptable motive for living a holy life; and surely the greater the salvation one has received, the more love and gratitude there will be." BBF, well, now I am truly confused as to what you meant when you gave the tornado example way back at the beginning of this discussion. Do you think a believer can lose his/her salvation or not? I'll try to clarify what I said about salvation, XQUIRE: If you repent and believe that Jesus Christ is your Savior (i.e. believe in his atoning death and resurrection) then you are saved for eternity. You cannot lose that salvation. You can sin, but you are forgiven of those sins, but you can't lose the gift of eternal life once you accept it. So, no, no, no, XQUIRE, I do not believe there is anything that can cause one to lose salvation. [This message has been edited by govtlawyer (edited 03-28-2001).] |
|||
|
|
member Wicked Awesome Member |
quote: Yes, I understand that this is what you believe. I can agree that the Bible says Christ’s sacrifice was “once for all” and believers receive forgiveness for their sins as a free gift. However, you have not explained how the verses I cited (in my 03-27-01 01:43 a.m. post) factor in to your belief. Personally, I find this very frustrating as I do not get to understand what you believe as completely as I'd like. |
|||
|
|
Wicked Awesome Member |
I'm sorry, PEGASUS, but I don't see how the verses you mentioned in your last post demonstrate LOSS of salvation.
|
|||
|
|
Wicked Awesome Member |
govtlawyer: I believe that a Christian can lose his/her salvation. But that need not be the end of the story. If a believer who has fallen into serious sin once again turns back to God, repents, and asks forgiveness, then God will forgive that believer such that the person's relationship with God is restored. (Similar to the prodigal son who fell away from his father's household, squandered his inheritance, but then was fully restored to his father's house on his return.) The saving power of Jesus' once-for-all sacrifice on the cross, which is indeed enough of a sacrifice to take away all our sins, is always available whenever we ask.
BBF quote: [This message has been edited by Buffalo Bills Fan (edited 03-28-2001).] |
|||
|
|
member Wicked Awesome Member |
quote: Then please explain how they do NOT demonstrate loss of salvation. [This message has been edited by pegasus_x (edited 03-29-2001).] |
|||
|
|
Wicked Awesome Member |
BBF, which "serious sins" could cause a believer to "lose" their salvation?
PEGASUS, I'm not ignoring your question but it will take me some time to answer. |
|||
|
|
member Wicked Awesome Member |
quote: God intervening there sounds like fatalism or predestination. What happened to free will? If you did commit a sin later couldn't you repent as you said in another post? And did you really mean "God wills all men to be saved"? |
|||
|
|
Wicked Awesome Member |
Matt. 24:13 is part of the dissertation on the end of the age and the signs of Christ's second coming. He is telling people who will live in that time to stand firm in their love for Him. I don't see that it says anything else.
John 14:12: In this chapter Jesus is stressing the relationship between Him and the Father and explaining where He is returning to (i.e. Heaven) and then how the Holy Spirit will come as the Counselor. I see nothing in 14:12 that even remotely discusses salvation. Acts 26:20: Paul is making a defense against false charges that he had stirred up riots among the Jews, that he tried to desecrate the temple and that he was the ringleader of the Nazarene sect. King Agrippa told Paul he could speak. One of the things he told Agrippa was that people should repent and prove their repentance by their deeds. In other words, what Paul preached was that if one is truly repentant it would show up in their life. Again, compare this to Judas who outwardly one would think he was a follower of Jesus but his deeds (the betrayal for money) showed there was no true repentance. Again, this verse does not even hint at “losing” salvation. Romans 2:6-8: In Romans 2, Paul sets forth principles that govern God’s judgment and a discussion of the law (the law of the Old Testament). And if you go on through into chapter 3 you see that what he is leading up to – that “no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.” (3:20). The whole point of chapters 2 and 3 is that no man has ever been able to live up to the law and no man ever can, except the God-Man, Jesus. Verses 2:6-8 tell us that if we could live a perfect life (i.e. follow all the law to the letter and never once waver from it even in the smallest way) we would be rewarded with eternal life. But, we can’t (as sinful man) do it. Therefore, Paul continues, God HAS provided us the way to righteousness, and “This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.” And, therein lies man's salvation. [This message has been edited by govtlawyer (edited 03-29-2001).] |
|||
|
|
Wicked Awesome Member |
1 Timothy 6:18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.
Titus 2:7 In everything set them an example by doing what is good. Titus 3:8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. Hebrews 10:24 Again, these verses are telling believers to do good things. They do NOT say, if you don’t, you “lose” your salvation. Of course, we are commanded to do good things – that’s what God wants us to do. And, if we have been saved by Him, how much more will we WANT to do those things? If you go to verse 19 in 1 Tim. 6, you see that by doing the good deeds we lay up treasures for ourselves. While the idea isn’t to do good just to get rewards, the idea is to do good because it is the right thing to do, and in the end, though, there are heavenly rewards… [This message has been edited by govtlawyer (edited 03-29-2001).] |
|||
|
|
Wicked Awesome Member |
James 2:
James is not saying that we are saved by works, but that a professed faith that is not evidenced by works is dead and cannot save. The issue in James is not how to be saved, but the good works which follow and demonstrate that one is already saved. The works simply demonstrate the faith. The doing of works will not justify because it is faith alone that justifies. How does this relate to Paul's words in Philippians 2:12-13, "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed -- not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence -- continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."? It is this: Paul is not telling believers to work FOR their salvation but to work out in our lives the salvation that we already have in our hearts - we do this through prayer, good deeds, helping others, studying God's Word, etc. [This message has been edited by govtlawyer (edited 03-29-2001).] |
|||
|
|
Wicked Awesome Member |
I would have this question for those who believe faith PLUS works are necessary for salvation: How many works, what kind of works, how would we ever know when it was enough?
The answer is is that Bible doesn't describe any such thing. If works are necessary for salvation, surely a loving God would have told us EXACTLY what was required instead of leaving it as a guessing game. But, He didn't do that; instead He provided His Son as the perfect sacrifice and gives us salvation as a gift when we repent and believe. No guesswork, no fear we haven't "done enough." |
|||
|
|
member Wicked Awesome Member |
quote: General agreement on these points. I never subscribed to the idea that a person could earn salvation through works. But, to me, "once saved, always saved" implies that works are not needed at all. So you do believe then that works are evidence that one has faith? If so, what has happened if a Christian who had faith, did good works, but then stops? Is there salvation for such a one? [This message has been edited by pegasus_x (edited 03-29-2001).] |
|||
|