Please use this thread to continue the "Theocentricity" discussion.

Hi guys,

I'm not sure what happened to the missing page -- I apologize but it appears it's been lost.

However, I went ahead and archived the "Theocentricity" thread, which you'll find here or by going to the Filmfodder Forums opening page then using the "Visit our Archive" drop-down menu toward the bottom of the page. The "Theocentricity" thread is closed and now saved as a read-only archive.

You can continue the discussion in this thread and, when it gets filled again, I can archive this one as well.

Again, sorry for the deletion. I have no idea what might have happened.

A couple of further notes:

The reason I archived the original "Theocentricity" thread is because doing so protects it against any further deletion. What's there should remain there (unless something catastrophic occurs).

Also, you can gain access to the archived file from any thread by using the "hop to" pulldown menu. Click that and at the bottom of the listing you'll see a list of archived topics, including "Theocentricity"

If you have questions, drop me a line

Thanks, Trust. I guess the old thread may have hit the 5 billion word limit!

I'm going to see if any of the missing posts can be recreated from my downloads but I usually only save selected portions, not the entirety of other people's posts.

[This message has been edited by pegasus_x (edited 05-28-2001).]

govt, Regarding your post about the man on the roof of his flooded house: I believe you have the wrong impression of my situation. I am frustrated - not foolish - which makes the flood story the wrong scenario.

Here is a scenario closer to reality:

I'm not on the roof. There is no flood. I'm in the yard next to my neighbor's fence. It is a typical, ordinary day. The lawn is smooth and green and flowers are in bloom. I just finished chatting with my next-door neighbor. Among other topics, we were in the habit of discussing our mutual problem regarding religion - we both don't know how to have faith in God. She excuses herself to go inside to check a roast in the oven. After a few minutes inside, she suddenly comes running out crying, "I'm saved! I'm saved!" She breathlessly says how happy she is, then runs back inside saying she has to phone another friend to tell her the wonderful news. I am left alone, standing by the fence, wondering why my neighbor has found what we've both been looking for but I have not. Later that day I get to talk to her again. I ask her what I have to do to get saved. She says, "Just have faith."

Upcoming: The Post That Killed The Theocentricity Thread....

Peg...and now Desdemona (hello!) – That’s a frustrating spot to be in, being close but not...quite...there when it comes to matters of faith and belief. At the risk of sounding like ‘I know exactly how you feel’...I recall similar feelings myself that weren’t THAT many years ago. To be both attracted and repelled, to feel faith’s nearness but only in an asymptotic way, to feel alternatively confused, angry, and ultimately unrequited. I got where I hated the verses in Luke 11! I ended up in atheism, even though being raised in a ‘religious’ household, as a result of those feelings. I was especially irritated at religious folks who, though well intentioned and unaware, seemed to explain their views in ways that implied that anyone with a body temperature just above room temperature should just be able to SEE and UNDERSTAND what they so clearly saw and understood.

So let me now show you how you too can have faith, in three simple steps...! >;-)

Peg, we’ve covered some of this in various ways over in the Trinity thread, but a few things might be worthy reruns as food for thought. These are at least are some of the things that would have shortened MY trip through the desert of quasi-belief if only I had heard them earlier. Desdemona, I have to warn you...I’m a left-brained type, which can be useful at times for certain folks, and less so for others – best wishes!

OK, what is ‘religious faith’ to you? Is it that certain, absolutely positive, amazingly real sort of ‘gut’ feeling that allows one to do and believe wondrous spiritual things? Or, more like a satisfyingly coherent understanding, a sort of mental congruence over intellectual things not able to be experientially ‘proven’? For me at least, my view of what I thought faith was is what actually prevented me from belief. I will only say that what I originally thought was too high, too ideal, ultimately unreal.

Related, even after 14 years now I find I must exercise my faith daily, and I do mean daily. And I do mean exercise, too. I frequently remind myself of the foundational ‘mysteries’ of faith, not to try to convince myself of what should be true, but to remind myself of what is already true. I don’t personally see that a sign of weakness, but of the sincerity of my earlier decision to live out a life of faith to the best of MY ability (as weak as it is). Others may have a different level or type of faith, but all types of faith have a consistent core – it is a trusting and active belief in God that permeates all aspects of one’s life.

I read this in Hebrews yesterday, seems appropriate to add here:

“What is faith? It is the confident assurance that what we hope for is going to happen. It is the evidence of things we cannot yet see. God gave his approval to people in days of old because of their faith. By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God's command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen. It was by faith that Abel brought a more acceptable offering to God than Cain did. God accepted Abel's offering to show that he was a righteous man. And although Abel is long dead, he still speaks to us because of his faith. It was by faith that Enoch was taken up to heaven without dying--"suddenly he disappeared because God took him." But before he was taken up, he was approved as pleasing to God. So, you see, it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that there is a God and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him.” (Heb 11: 1-6, rest of chapter emphasizes this point.)

And, chapter 11 is summed up by the first part of chapter 12:
“Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily hinders our progress. And let us run with endurance the race that God has set before us. We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, on whom our faith depends from start to finish.”

So, to add just a bit to my (overly?) simple definition of faith: for the Christian, it is a trusting and active belief in God through Jesus as Savior, using the Bible as a guide for life; it is something that should permeate all aspects of one’s life.

If these thoughts and the above verses are in some degree irritating to you (which is not my goal!), then it may be useful to wrestle with what you think faith is and isn’t at a foundational level. See if what you are looking for as signs or measures of Faith are realistic and fair; a mustard seed is a pretty small seed after all. If these thoughts and verses are reassuring to you, then they give guidance for the necessary ‘steps’ that help us mature our faith.

Again, I’m not trying to trivialize anyone’s struggle for a life-changing faith by giving out overly simple answers, but in the end I found it wasn’t all that complicated. After some analysis, some decisions are made, commitment to them is pledged, and corresponding consequences follow. It’s a lot like any long-term relationship – it all revolves around commitment and trust.

I admire the tenacious desire that some folks have to hang in there when it seems the other Person in the relationship is not as engaged as we’d like them to be. It takes a lot of courage to keep trying when it feels ineffective. I suspect if we were able to listen closely enough, we’d be able to hear the ‘otherworldly’ cheering for those of us who struggle mightily to climb the hill of Faith – whether the first knoll or the final elevation... keep pressing on! -X

[This message has been edited by Xyon (edited 05-29-2001).]

OK, I'm 1 for 2 on thread killing...so much for my potential new career...

Way to go, XYON.

DESDEMONA, what did you say on the prior thread that no longer exists?

Govt, I'm all over it:

(from Desdemona)

hi there! Couldn't help dropping in. Hope you people don't mind. I'm pretty much in the same position as you pegasus_x, but I sometimes comfort myself with those verses when I'm real discouraged. I also >>want<< faith but it keeps being just out of reach. I'm not an atheist but I wish I could be sure I believed like some of you people seem to. I've been studying the Bible for years now too. These verses there seem to tell that if we keep asking God, He will give. Well we >>are<< asking. What do you think?

(Peg's reply)

Welcome, Desdemona.
Faith being just out of reach is quite discouraging. I also try to take comfort from those verses in Luke. I often wonder how long I can hold out. Another verse says that we won't be given more than we can bear. However, so many Bible verses seem to be directed towards those who already believe and have faith.

** no, that's ALL of the missing thread I have! **

xyon, hello and thank you for your post. I'm a bit of a left-brainer myself so I know where you're coming from. I agree with your defintion of faith, and with how important it is to the believer. That's what tends to >>get<< to me. If I could convince myself that following God's Word was enough I'd be a happier person.

Let me see if I can make myself any clearer. Faith, you say, has a lot to do with >>concious decision and commitment<<. I'd agree. But still I'd think there is a - vacuum if it's no more than that. An illustration. I've once tried to talk myself into believing I was in loa

PEGASUS, regarding the neighbor who said, "Just have faith!" - faith in what? Faith has to be in something.

One has "faith" that a chair will hold them when they sit down...so the faith is placed in the strength of the chair.

The saving faith is one placed in the Person and work of Jesus Christ. That He is Who He is and that He died and rose again to save us all from the consequences of our sins.

So, it isn't "X" quantity of "faith" that one needs to be saved, it is placing one's faith/trust/etc. in the Person of Christ.

Here are some uses/definitions of "faith" from Vine's Expository Dictionary:

Topic: Faith
<1,,4102,pistis>
primarily, "firm persuasion," a conviction based upon hearing (akin to peitho, "to persuade"), is used in the NT always of "faith in God or Christ, or things spiritual."
The word is used of (a) trust, e.g., Rom. 3:25 [see Note (4) below]; 1 Cor. 2:5; 15:14,17; 2 Cor. 1:24; Gal. 3:23 [see Note (5) below]; Phil. 1:25; 2:17; 1 Thess. 3:2; 2 Thess. 1:3; 3:2; (b) trust-worthiness, e.g., Matt. 23:23; Rom. 3:3, RV, "the faithfulness of God;" Gal. 5:22 (RV, "faithfulness"); Titus 2:10, "fidelity;" (c) by metonymy, what is believed, the contents of belief, the "faith," Acts 6:7; 14:22; Gal. 1:23; 3:25 [contrast Gal. 3:23, under (a)]; Gal. 6:10; Phil. 1:27; 1 Thess. 3:10; Jude 1:3,20 (and perhaps 2 Thess. 3:2); (d) a ground for "faith," an assurance, Acts 17:31 (not as in AV, marg., "offered faith"); (e) a pledge of fidelity, plighted "faith," 1 Tim. 5:12.

The main elements in "faith" in its relation to the invisible God, as distinct from "faith" in man, are especially brought out in the use of this noun and the corresponding verb, pisteuo; they are (1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation or truth, e.g., 2 Thess. 2:11,12; (2) a personal surrender to Him, John 1:12; (3) a conduct inspired by such surrender, 2 Cor. 5:7. Prominence is given to one or other of these elements according to the context. All this stands in contrast to belief in its purely natural exercise, which consists of an opinion held in good "faith" without necessary reference to its proof. The object of Abraham's "faith" was not God's promise (that was the occasion of its exercise); his "faith" rested on God Himself, Rom. 4:17,20,21. See ASSURANCE, BELIEF, FAITHFULNESS, FIDELITY.

Notes: (1) In Heb. 10:23, elpis, "hope," is mistranslated "faith" in the AV (RV, "hope"). (2) In Acts 6:8 the most authentic mss. have charis, "grace," RV, for pistis, "faith." (3) In Rom. 3:3, RV, apistia, is rendered "want of faith," for AV, "unbelief" (so translated elsewhere). See UNBELIEF. The verb apisteo in that verse is rendered "were without faith," RV, for AV, "did not believe." (4) In Rom. 3:25, the AV wrongly links "faith" with "in His blood," as if "faith" is reposed in the blood (i.e., the death) of Christ; the en is instrumental; "faith" rests in the living Person; hence the RV rightly puts a comma after "through faith," and renders the next phrase "by His blood," which is to be connected with "a propitiation." Christ became a propitiation through His blood (i.e., His death in expiatory sacrifice for sin). (5) In Gal. 3:23, though the article stands before "faith" in the original, "faith" is here to be taken as under (a) above, and as in Gal. 3:22, and not as under (c), "the faith;" the article is simply that of renewed mention. (6) For the difference between the teaching of Paul and that of James, on "faith" and works, see Notes on Galatians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 117-119.

Hi, DESDEMONA,

You asked about God's existence. Here is an interesting quote from a small book titled "Who Says God Created...":

"Throughout history, man has been incurably God-conscious, whether seeking God or trying to deny that He even exists. Could it be that Augustine was right? 'Thou, has made us for Thyself, O God, and our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee.'"

Why do I believe that God (the God of the Bible) exists? Here are some reasons:

1. The design of the Universe and all therein points to a Designer. This has also been called the cosmological argument or its
close associate, the teleological argument. Psalm 19:1 says that "The heavens declare the glory of God..."

2. There is the rational argument that the world operates according to order and nautral law and therefore there must be a mind behind the order and law.

3. The ontological argument is the idea that man can conceive of the idea of perfection --of God. But where could man get his idea of God, but from God Himself?

4. The moral argument holds that man has a built-in sense of right and wrong that cannot be accounted for except by looking to the Someone who created man and gave him this sense in the first place.

5. The Bible ASSUMES God's existence - it never argues the point. Romans 1:19-20 says, "For what can be known about God is plain to [men], because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse;"




[This message has been edited by govtlawyer (edited 05-30-2001).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xyon:
I was especially irritated at religious folks who, though well intentioned and unaware, seemed to explain their views in ways that implied that anyone with a body temperature just above room temperature should just be able to SEE and UNDERSTAND what they so clearly saw and understood.

---

Amen.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xyon:
Faith ... It is the confident assurance that what we hope for is going to happen.

---

I have the hope, just lack the "confident assurance".

quote:

---

It is the evidence of things we cannot yet see.

---

Faith as "evidence of things we cannot see." Well, I've heard "you can't see the wind but it's there" or "you can't see gravity but it's there". True, you can't "see" them but you can "feel" them. I do not as yet "feel" faith and this is what I miss.

Apart from God whom "no man has seen" , what else can't be seen but we know exists? The smallest sub-atomic particles, dark matter in space? We can't "see" them but they are detectable by how they react/relate to things around them. I know that faith "reacts/relates" to people and greatly improves their lives. However, although I can read a book about sub-atomic particles and dark matter and believe what is written, the same can't be done for faith - or love or happiness or any other emotion or feeling.

Maybe you are right on, xyon, about "exercising faith". We all know very well that you cannot learn how to ride a horse or swim just from reading a book. You have to get on the horse, get into the water, and apply what you read. Food for thought. I'll chew on this awhile.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xyon:
For me at least, my view of what I thought faith was is what actually prevented me from belief. I will only say that what I originally thought was too high, too ideal, ultimately unreal.

---

I understand that I don't immediately need the level of faith that, say, Paul had near the end of his life. That is unrealistic. But for me, even the faith of the mustard seed seems unattainable. You've got to admit that what the Bible promises is on the order of "too good to be true" considering what mankind has been through and is going through. Having everlasting life with God's love and without fear is way more than fairy tales and Santa Claus - and we know that fairy tales and Santa Claus just aren't true. I don't make this comparison to say that I can't believe what the Bible says - just to say that having faith in it is difficult after seeing other "promises" collapse and knowing how many people suffer terribly without relief.

[This message has been edited by pegasus_x (edited 05-30-2001).]

Govt: “So, it isn't "X" quantity of "faith" that one needs to be saved, it is placing one's faith/trust/etc. in the Person of Christ.”

Sure, but for one to risk one’s posterior, you need enough faith to take the risk of inadvertently converting the potential energy of said posterior into kinetic energy if the chair one is aiming for does not actually hold your weight.

In other words, there is a threshold that must be overcome for one to actually trust in something, to move from a theoretical faith to an active faith.

We’d all agree that there are many things in our everyday world that we trust which are plausible...but were not just a short while ago: that the drivers in the oncoming lane will stay there, that the wings won’t break off on the plane, that the can of Spam isn’t poisoned (well, no more than normal). We’ve learned to trust these things because we’ve found that they are sufficiently trustworthy.

Yet, plausibility and absolute proof are not necessarily the same thing, just as they are not in the above examples: you can’t be SURE that the driver won’t enter your lane, the wings won’t break, or the Spam is OK to eat (work with me here...). I find that people often will use a very different standard or definition of religious faith than they do for other aspects of life. People rightly expect a higher level of plausibility from matters of religion, but I think Christianity is more than up to the task.

So, what does it take for someone to actually move from a theoretical faith to an active faith?

Peg, Desdemona – what do you think/guess/expect on that?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Xyon:
So, what does it take for someone to actually move from a theoretical faith to an active faith?

Peg, Desdemona – what do you think/guess/expect on that?

---

Studying the Bible this past year has been different for me thanks to this forum. I've been deeper into the Bible than ever before and it's all for the better. The one area where I notice the most change is actually not in the specific topics we covered but rather in seeing even more clearly how God has provided for us, how much He loves us. I think that as my understanding increases my faith will grow too.

Govtlawyer, I see you've read my post that was >>eaten<< on the things I'd like to have faith in. I sure hope this message board works again. I hear you when you give me your reasons for believing in His existence. I'd even tentatively agree to some. Yes, we do have a conception of good and evil - at least our Western culture does. That isn't easily explained unless as a Darwinistic principle and that isn't always coherent. We can >>think<< the concept of a God. Why would we do that? Then again - I don't know. There's so much in today's modern world that makes you wonder. We've stripped life of much of it's mystery.

Take genetic engeniering. What if man >>creates<< a mixture of an animal [say, an ape) and a human? Would it have a >>soul<>life<< is a DNA code of repetetive nucleoids that can be manipulated at will? And is our >>soul<< really more than just energy floating around in our neurons, that will perish when we do? There're days when I think the human soul too grand to be no more than floating engery, but on black days I'm not so certain. There're days where I think death'll be where we finally meet with God. And other days I think it'll be like a black dreamless sleep with nothing to awaken us. I guess this is where the faith comes in?

[This message has been edited by Desdemona (edited 05-30-2001).]

Xyon, good post, hard question. What would it take. I guess part of the problem is that you can't >>see<< the results of faith, like pegasus_x said. You can watch people getting on planes and landing safely. You hear about planes crashing. So when you fly, you take a calculated risk based on other people's experience. Same with chairs. If you see someone sit on a chair that's heavier than you and not crash, you can reason it will probably hold you. But God? You don't see people returning heaven and telling us about it. We have the accounts of the Bible, but that was >>long<< ago. Longer than our fairy tales! [Those're from the Middle Ages).

I think the other part of the problem's simple fear. It would take so much out of me, change so much, if I really let God be in charge of my life. I'd have to do a lot of things differently. I'm a >>control<< person. I have a hard time letting go. Sit on the passenger seat of my life and let God do the driving? This is what scares me. And so maybe that's why I want more than an >>ordinary<< amount of trust, hope, reasonable certaincy [faith) before putting my faith in Him?

Des

quote:

---

So, what does it take for someone to actually move from a theoretical faith to an active faith?

Peg, Desdemona – what do you think/guess/expect on that?[/B]

---

For me, it was logical. That God exists was logical. Then, because He did exist, what He said about Christ must be true, ergo, I took the leap of faith. I wasn't 100% absolutely sure that it was all true. I remember praying that I wasn't sure, but "here I am, God."

Spam, XYON? Faith in Spam? LOL!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Desdemona:
Xyon, good post, hard question. What would it take. I guess part of the problem is that you can't >>see<< the results of faith, like pegasus_x said.
Des

---

But you can see the results of faith in Christ in the changed lives of believers, DESDEMONA. Every believer can attest to that fact. The person we were before isn't the new person we are in Christ. The testimony of Paul in the New Testament is no different than the testimony of untold millions of believers from then until now - People who's lives were rescued from drugs, alcohol, despair or just the simple "what are we all here for?"