This episode struck me as pivotal ... but I couldn't tell you why.

Last week Alpert gives Locke the compass & tells Locke, Next time we meet I won't know you.
What is it that allows Alpert to know he will meet Locke and yet also know he won't recognize Locke? That perplexes me.

Alpert appeared surprised by Locke's time travel. Is that because Alpert doesn't time travel or because Locke does?

We know for certain that who/whatever Jacob is, he was a player in 1954.

Hydrogen bomb?! The first one was tested on the Bikini Atoll in March 1954. Where did this one come from? Did the US build a spare?

How did it come to be hanging from that scaffold? What the hell is holding it? I'm thinking a hydrogen bomb has to be mighty heavy.

If Widmore and Alpert don't know who the Lostees are, does that indicate that it isn't possible to jump from the present to the future? If that is so, does that suggest that the future is not set, so it is possible to change the future? Or, if it is possible to jump from the present to the future, does it indicate that the ability to jump in time happens after 1954?

I wonder if the nose bleeds are associated with radiation poisoning?

I'm tired.

Yeah, me too... I'm about to have a nosebleed myself. It's all doing my head in, what can and can't be changed etc.

I was thinking, last week it occurred to me that Miles could be Candle's son. Charlotte also has some connectin with the island, I think she talked of "coming back".

Now (thanks to a discussion I read on another forum) I am wondering whether that young Other, Elle, is Daniel's mother.

He recognised her, and it might explain his connection with the island too.
Could Elle actually be "El" short for "Eloise" (who names a rat after their mother though?).

Well, it was just a thought...

quote:

Originally posted by YinYang:
Yeah, me too... I'm about to have a nosebleed myself. It's all doing my head in, what can and can't be changed etc.

I was thinking, last week it occurred to me that Miles could be Candle's son. Charlotte also has some connectin with the island, I think she talked of "coming back".

Now (thanks to a discussion I read on another forum) I am wondering whether that young Other, Elle, is Daniel's mother.

He recognised her, and it might explain his connection with the island too.
Could Elle actually be "El" short for "Eloise" (who names a rat after their mother though?).

Well, it was just a thought...

Lots of people name animals after their mom. I knew a cockatiel, & chicken & a dog named after moms & grandmoms.

Jughead, buried in concrete, say at the hatch?
Remember Jack and Sayid crawling around and hitting a ton of concrete.
Also, the hatch people had to take shots everyday, I thought it was part of the test but it could be for radiation sickness.

a radiation leak explains a lot. the protection suits that had to be worn before going outside the hatch but after a few years were no longer necessary. The vast network of underground buildings.

So if everyone was walking around unradiated at the time of the Purge of Dharma (POD...that's for you Hurling)can we deduce that the leak occurred after the POD?

Was Jughead dropped and unexploded? Did the plane carrying it fall out of the sky? Was it hijacked?

The Mark-24 nuclear weapon weighed 41,000 pounds and was manufactured beginning in July 1954.

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:
a radiation leak explains a lot. the protection suits that had to be worn before going outside the hatch but after a few years were no longer necessary. The vast network of underground buildings.

So if everyone was walking around unradiated at the time of the Purge of Dharma (POD...that's for you Hurling)can we deduce that the leak occurred after the POD?

Was Jughead dropped and unexploded? Did the plane carrying it fall out of the sky? Was it hijacked?

The Mark-24 nuclear weapon weighed 41,000 pounds and was manufactured beginning in July 1954.

Impressive, Dauntless, some internet research!

41,000 pounds

from Wikpedia

"The Mark 24 nuclear bomb was an American thermonuclear bomb design, based on the third American thermonuclear bomb test, Castle Yankee. The Mark 24 bomb was tied as the largest weight and size nuclear bomb ever deployed by the United states, with the same size and weight as the Mark 17 nuclear bomb which used a very similar design concept but unenriched Lithium.

The Castle Yankee thermonuclear test was the first bomb to use enriched Lithium-6 isotope, up to perhaps 40% enrichment. The device tested was called the Runt II design; it was reportedly very similar to the Runt design tested in Castle Bravo, other than the enrichment level.

Castle Yankee had a demonstrated yield of 13.5 megatons. The yield for the weaponized Mark 24 was predicted to be 10-15 megatons.

The EC24 bomb was a limited production run of the Castle Yankee test device, with 10 produced and stockpiled through 1954. The EC24 was 61 by 225 inches and weighed 39,600 pounds. The EC24 was a purely free-fall bomb design.

The production model Mark 24 nuclear bomb was 61.4 by 296 inches long, with a weight between 41,000 and 42,000 pounds. It was in service between 1954 and 1956, with a total of 105 units produced. The Mark 24 included a 64 foot diameter parachute to slow its descent."

So there were all sorts of "bombs which ours could be, including a pre-production Mk. 24.


I've eliminated "dropped from the sky" as an alternative. The bomb casing is not dented near enough to have been dropped from any altitude (not that that fact would prevent the writers from making it so). There is no clear evidence of the parachute harness for a parachute drop, although I'll have to go back and look again.

That leaves two possibilities in my mind; the bomb was somehow hijacked or the bomb was on the island on purpose. I tend toward the bomb being on the island on purpose.


So, what does that all mean? So we have some period authentic American military uniforms and weapons circa 1950s. Of course, the explosives at the creek were wrong, but I think that was just the writers looking for an authentic anti-personnel device and not finding one which was both period authentic and which showed up well on film. We also have a blonde woman with a decidedly non-American accent who is also in the period authentic American uniform, although I doubt they issued a form-fitting tank top in 1950, but someone had to replace all of the hot women who have been killed off to fit into the storyline in the future.

So, does this imply the island is supposed to have been a testing site for the hydrogen bomb? And why is Richard in charge? He specifically describes killing off a significant military detachment who had occupied the island. Was that military detachment security for the placement of the bomb on the island for testing? Or were they looking for the bomb? The fact that Richard's Others had only a few rifles and used bows would seem to imply they were not official military. Did they steal the uniforms from the military detachment they killed? If so, why do they only have a few rifles? Details, details!

It still begs the question, who in the heck are the Others, where did they come from, who sent them and what are they up to? Clearly Widmore didn't send them. He is one of them in 1954. Richard and Jacob remain key elements in this time travelling passion play.

All of this happens in 1954, pre-hatch time. Did something related to the bomb happen which led to a future scientific expedition which built the hatches?

I also wonder about the effects of radiation from the leak in the bomb. If the scientists could detect the radiation, thus requiring the suits, why not locate the source and remove it?

AND (yes, a mighty big "and") was the bomb buried as Faraday directed? If so, is there a buried H bomb still on the island during our Losties current time, waiting to jump back onto the chessboard?

free association....

I can't remember what Jughead looked like but here are drawings of the big bombs

http://www.strategic-air-command.com/weapons/nuclear_bomb_chart.htm

I still think Widmore is/was the founder/boss of the Dharma Initiative...he reeks of military industrial complex which reeks of $$$ and power. And I think Sun's dad is in cahoots with Widmore. sort of a trilateral commission. They want to exploit the mcguffin. Alpert, Ben, Jacob want to prevent them from exploiting the mcguffin because something extraordinarily important hangs in the balance. I really do think Ben was telling the truth when he said, "We are the good guys."

Am I correct in thinking that we have thus far not seen anyone jump from the present to the future? All the jumps have been to various points in the past and back to the present. So can we say that no one is trying to change the past, they are trying to effect the future. And for the life of me I don't see how or why that is not possible.

I understand that if Joe was supposed to save the mcguffin but he got hit by a bus and died in Schnectady, that clearly Joe won't save the mcguffin. But why can't Jim save the mcguffin instead? I think the Others are trying to get Jim to the island so he can save the mcguffin. Only I think Jim's name is Aaron.

I don't like Locke; I would not invite him over for chicken enchiladas and beer. I don't want to sit at the table after dinner and chat with him for hours. Jack either. Sawyer, yes. Miles, yes. Charlotte, no. Hurley, yes. Daniel, no. Ben, yes. Sayid, no. Juliette, no. Kate, no. Alpert, yes. Ze crazy Rousseau, oui. Michael, no no no. Desmond, aye. Penny, yes. Charlie, yes. Eko, yes. Claire, yes.

EngineerCarl...Would that wooden scaffold hold a suspended 41,000 pound object? And how would one suspend it? ...I'm going to climb this ladder and you guys hand it to me and I'll hook it to this hook here.

What would happen if lightening struck that bomb?

Did I miss something? I thought Alpert didn't recognize the compass? Why not? Did the meeting occur earlier than Alpert had anticipated it would, prior to Alpert's having ever seen the compass? In which case...what the fuh??? Locke gave Alpert the compass Alpert gave him that he got from Locke. Where'd the bloody compass come from?

that's all.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: undaunted,

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:
free association....

I can't remember what Jughead looked like but here are drawings of the big bombs

http://www.strategic-air-command.com/weapons/nuclear_bomb_chart.htm

I still think Widmore is/was the founder/boss of the Dharma Initiative...he reeks of military industrial complex which reeks of $$$ and power. And I think Sun's dad is in cahoots with Widmore. sort of a trilateral commission. They want to exploit the mcguffin. Alpert, Ben, Jacob want to prevent them from exploiting the mcguffin because something extraordinarily important hangs in the balance. I really do think Ben was telling the truth when he said, "We are the good guys."

Am I correct in thinking that we have thus far not seen anyone jump from the present to the future? All the jumps have been to various points in the past and back to the present. So can we say that no one is trying to change the past, they are trying to effect the future. And for the life of me I don't see how or why that is not possible.

I understand that if Joe was supposed to save the mcguffin but he got hit by a bus and died in Schnectady, that clearly Joe won't save the mcguffin. But why can't Jim save the mcguffin instead? I think the Others are trying to get Jim to the island so he can save the mcguffin. Only I think Jim's name is Aaron.

I don't like Locke; I would not invite him over for chicken enchiladas and beer. I don't want to sit at the table after dinner and chat with him for hours. Jack either. Sawyer, yes. Miles, yes. Charlotte, no. Hurley, yes. Daniel, no. Ben, yes. Sayid, no. Juliette, no. Kate, no. Alpert, yes. Ze crazy Rousseau, oui. Michael, no no no. Desmond, aye. Penny, yes. Charlie, yes. Eko, yes. Claire, yes.

EngineerCarl...Would that wooden scaffold hold a suspended 41,000 pound object? And how would one suspend it? ...I'm going to climb this ladder and you guys hand it to me and I'll hook it to this hook here.

What would happen if lightening struck that bomb?

Did I miss something? I thought Alpert didn't recognize the compass? Why not? Did the meeting occur earlier than Alpert had anticipated it would, prior to Alpert's having ever seen the compass? In which case...what the fuh??? Locke gave Alpert the compass Alpert gave him that he got from Locke. Where'd the bloody compass come from?

that's all.

Well said, Dauntless!

I'm going to go back to view the episode again (and again) to look at the support for the bomb. My first impression was that the support would hold the bomb, no problem. It's all about vectors. Because the weight of the bomb is completely vertical, most of the force is applied to the vertical members, the corner columns. The horizontal members simply keep the columns from bending out (moment) from the small horizontal component of the force which is applied from the slight angle of the ropes as they extend from the structure to the bomb. That said, that was all from memory. I need to look again at the actual size of the support members.

Now, getting it up there is another story. Remember, the Egyptians moved big honkin' blocks of stone up sand slopes to build the pyramids simply using lots of bodies. The Others don't seem to have near enough people to accomplish the task. There also don't seem to be any mechanical devices in evidence which would help; i.e. a pulley system, a significant water source for hydraulic power, etc. They could have built a ramp and rolled it up but there is no evidence of that.

The connections between the bomb and the structure are another issue. I'll look at that. That weight is a lot for a couple of old hemp ropes to hold. Ideally, multiple cables would extend from columns at each of the four corners. It is really like a jumbo version of a car lift at an auto shop.

EDIT!! Okay, I went back and looked at the structure again. There is no possible way it would hold 41,000 pounds, or anywhere close to that. First and foremost, I had missed the single rope which runs up to the structure and connects over the top beams to the bomb. The rope is somehow attached to the ground. It would take one honkin' ground anchor to hold 41,000 pounds without pulling out. If you connected it to the bumper of your car, it would lift your car up as the bomb went down! Also, the cheesy horizontal superstructure on the top wouldn't hold more than half a ton or so.

My real questions is, assuming the Others found the bomb laying about, why suspend it like that? Was that done before the Others found the bomb, maybe by the military detachment?

If lightening struck the bomb? A good question. With modern nuclear devices I would say that nothing would happen because of the directed force necessary to initiate the reaction. It's not like lighting a gunpowder fuse. In those days there is less certainty. That might take some research.

So, for the most part I agree with your dinner invitations. I would include Ana Lucia, of course, and not Sawyer, since that would likely end up in a brawl. He is getting a bit unstable as of late. And I would invite Sayid. He has some great history.

Dauntless, are you still in the heartland?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: pagecarl,

Thank you EngineerCarl. I know squat about engineering, but I just couldn't see how that structure would hold that bomb! I also noted that Jughead was dangling there, swaying back and forth like a big fat radioactive explosive pendulum (bfrep).

I forgot Ana Lucia; of course she is welcome at my table. Sayid is too morose for me; even in love he was somber.

Yes I am still in the Heartland. Got to use my Yak Trax last Thursday to walk the 2 miles to work over frozen solid snow and ice. I higly recommend Yak Trax to anyone who lives any where that icy streets are a problem.

I got a job as a supervisor of the Host department in the Fort Sill Apache casino here. I enjoy it.

How about you Carl? Enjoying your job? I can't imagine how you couldn't be. Hitting any micro breweries in the area?

Hi guys just wanted to add my two penneth.

I think that whether the bomb could be suspended like that or not is pretty much irrelevent. I am not an engineer, in a physical sense, so I will just take it as read that it was impossible to suspend the bomb like that. I just think the writers wanted an interesting way to present a bomb and did not really look into the details.

However other parts of this thread really do intrigue me and I will need to ask the engineer some more questions.

1. I like the idea of the bomb maybe being the incident and perhaps what was in the hatch or the hatch was releasing. However can leaking radiation cause electromagnetic disturbance?

2. Can radiation be linked to time travel or is time travel related to the "donkey wheel" only?

quote:

Originally posted by Kris_London:
Hi guys just wanted to add my two penneth.

I think that whether the bomb could be suspended like that or not is pretty much irrelevent. I am not an engineer, in a physical sense, so I will just take it as read that it was impossible to suspend the bomb like that. I just think the writers wanted an interesting way to present a bomb and did not really look into the details.

However other parts of this thread really do intrigue me and I will need to ask the engineer some more questions.

1. I like the idea of the bomb maybe being the incident and perhaps what was in the hatch or the hatch was releasing. However can leaking radiation cause electromagnetic disturbance?

2. Can radiation be linked to time travel or is time travel related to the "donkey wheel" only?

Kris, I tend to agree that the writers just wanted a visual impact and were not worried about reality. Much like my life-long pet irritation about people chambering a round in a gun AFTER they are in the middle of the crap, so the sound techs can have the bold clunk of the bolt sliding shut. Bogus.

As far as the radiation, I do believe the radiation and/or the bomb will pay a larger role at some point. Then again, I still think the Black Rock will come back into the plot. The problem with associating the radiation with the time travel is that there was a clear reference to radiation burns on one of the Others. It could be assumed that he was dosed while directly handling the bomb. While there are no other obvious signs of radiation poisoning among the Others, those burns would indicate to me that any association with the bomb has the potential to be deadly to people.

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:
Thank you EngineerCarl. I know squat about engineering, but I just couldn't see how that structure would hold that bomb! I also noted that Jughead was dangling there, swaying back and forth like a big fat radioactive explosive pendulum (bfrep).

I forgot Ana Lucia; of course she is welcome at my table. Sayid is too morose for me; even in love he was somber.

Yes I am still in the Heartland. Got to use my Yak Trax last Thursday to walk the 2 miles to work over frozen solid snow and ice. I higly recommend Yak Trax to anyone who lives any where that icy streets are a problem.

I got a job as a supervisor of the Host department in the Fort Sill Apache casino here. I enjoy it.

How about you Carl? Enjoying your job? I can't imagine how you couldn't be. Hitting any micro breweries in the area?

A supervisor already? Dauntless, you are a rising star! Yes, I'm doing great here in Olympic. The people I work with are great and I get paid to hike out into the backcountry. Long term, I'm wondering if I'll be able (or willing) to adapt to the lack of sun. It remains to be seen. Kind of like being able to adapt to the flat.

No micro-breweries out here. Port Angeles is pretty isolated, 2+ hours from Seattle. We are close to the vampires in Forks, however.

pagecarl: no doubt, the weather is just about 180 from where you were before! I would find that very easy to live with; I love rain and over cast skies remind me of San Francisco. I hope you can adapt.


kris_london: I agree, how the bomb got suspended is probably irrelvent, but in your face stuff that could make sense but doesn't make sense nags at me. I'm not talking about the time skipping sort of thing, I can go with that.

I'm talking about (for instance) the Number 1 thing that drives me nuts on LOST: Why would someone plant plane wreckage in the wrong part of the ocean instead of in the right part of the ocean? Did that wreckage move from where it was orignally planted? Is it a hint that the island really does change it's geographic location?

I want to know.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: undaunted,

Jughead = Atom Bomb = Easy way of getting rid of the island forever :P