Hi everyone!

The latest edition of Key Points is now available:

Key Points from "Ji Yeon"

Well, didn't see that one coming!

You are right. Clearly didn't see that one on the horizon. However, aside from an entire episode about Sun and her baby, what did we really get out of the episode?

We already knew about Widmore.

Most everyone had already agreed that Michael would be on the boat.

We already knew the "found" 815 plane was a plant.

What else really happened? What does the birth have to do with much of anything?

A couple of questions.

My biggest question - In every case, Ben seems to be working somewhat alone, or singlehandedly, in the "future" after rescue. Where is the huge manpower which would be necessary to stage the fake 815 scene? If (a big if) Widmore really had no part in staging the 815 find, who did? That would leave another major force still unknown.

Does jin's death indicate a fight of some sort as part of rescue?

Given Juliette's discussion with Sun, they have only three weeks to get away, right?

What is the timing of the birth which had Hurley visiting in relation to him being back at the crazy shack?

If the helicopter really was going back to the island, where is it heading? Remember that we know there are other islands. That fact seems to have faded away.

The nature of the island induced wackiness remains in question knowing as we now do that it has impact as far away as the ship.

And finally, was Hurling able to watch the episode or is she in a painkiller induced haze?

So many questions, so little time.

I'm here, pc, you didn't even notice my posts. Only took morphine for 24 hrs - I'm seriously annoyed that the side effects were worse than the benefits. Anyway, it's been 2 wks & I can drive now & I walked a mile yesterday. All those situps came in handy. I am IronWoman!

A double-post from the Mac's review page:
The lima beans remind me of a short story (probably Asimov, but I don't remember) - the AI spaceship realizes it has to cause the temporary death of the astronauts in order to time travel. They must time travel, so the AI copes with the untenable situation by developing a sense of humor - the only foods it stores for the trip are beans & milk.

One of the nurses asked Sun if she should contact anyone - her parents or husband. Since we later found out Jin was (presumed) dead, the nurse should have known that. Obviously the dr did. But I didn't take much notice of the nurses - maybe it was not the one that knew who Sun was.

Since the story was that Jin died in the crash, was there anything buried at that headstone, or was it just meant to be a place to visit?

I am also really PO'd at both Juliet & Sun.
How could Juliet think that destroying Sun's marriage was worthwhile? And didn't it occur to her that Jin might kill Sun for having an affair?
Sun is a very accomplished liar. She could easily have convinced Jin that Juliet was lying about the affair just to keep them from joining Locke. Especially since it does appear that Sun got pregnant on the island. How simple is it to make your shocked expression mean, "How could you invent such a vile story?"
Why was Sun even speaking to Juliet later? This great fertility expert hasn't made any progress in saving the pregnant women, or even the fetuses. Much earlier than 2004, fetuses of 24 wks and less have been saved. I'm surprised Ben didn't have a whole NICU setup. Sun should be hanging out with Jack, an actual practicing MD who certainly can deliver a baby.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: hurling,

Loved the episode! Some reveals/confirmations, great character interactions.

The whole Jin/Sun Jin/Bernard Jin/Sun Sun/Hurley sequence just tore me up emotionally, it was so good.

As to the double flash (would that be a "flash forback"?) ... I liked it. A massive dose of WTF? It kept me on the edge of my seat for quite a while trying to figure out what I was seeing. But the clues were there the whole time, so I didn't feel like they "cheated" at the end.
When I first saw Jin I thought he looked too young for this to be a flash-forward.
But then Sun was way pregnant, so it became "Whoa, Sun had a miscarriage before 815, but, but ..."
But why would Jin be so obsesses about getting a Panda?
Will Sun make it to the hospital to be with Sun in time?
But why is Jin so angry again? This isn't the Jin who evolved into a really nice guy on the island.
Year of the Dragon??? That doesn't fit in a after the rescue/Sun giving birth timeline.
Confirmed - Sun and Jin are part of the Oceanic Six; and that accounts for everybody; but no, Jin "died" on the day of the crash.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: patcon,

What if Jin is not dead but stayed on the island? He probably gave up his seat on the helicopter to Sun to get her off the island to have their child.

Sun is sad cause Jin cannot be there or she doesn't know how to get back to him. The date of death on the tombstone was the date of the crash.

That means Sun get's off the island within a few weeks. Juliet said she would be dead in 3 weeks.

I was waiting for another cat fight when Juliet told Jin about Suns affair.

quote:

Originally posted by patcon:
Loved the episode! Some reveals/confirmations, great character interactions.

The whole Jin/Sun Jin/Bernard Jin/Sun Sun/Hurley sequence just tore me up emotionally, it was so good.

I completely agree. Not many seem to love the Sun/Jin storyline, but I'm upset that Jin is "gone".

I also wonder if the Jin/Bernard scene was prescient of a future conflict between them for their respective wives to get off the island. (Although I don't know why Rose wants to leave now.) The writers seem to like to throw conflict into the close friendships...some survive the tests and some don't.

So, at this point, we don't know who the last member is of the Oceanic Six yet, do we?

Jin's DOD was the date of the crash, so he is not one of the 8 that Jack said survived the crash...

That means that there is one member of the six we don't know about, and two other members that fit into their made-up story about the crash that we haven't identified.

I think one of the fictional 8 will be Michael.

EDIT -- Ha, Undaunted and I were on the same bunny trail at the same time. If you say Aaron is a member of the six, then I believe you.

So, as certail as you/we are about the "Oceanic 6", the "Fictional 8" is something we're both confused about.

Thanks Mac for a great review!

Ok . . . The Oceanic 6 are Kate, Jack, Hurly, Sayyid, Aaron, and Sun.

Forgive me while I rant for a moment about resistance to Aaron as one of the O-6:
Of course Aaron was a survivor! Geesh . . . Where the hell did he come from if he wasn't on that plane? If he was on the plane then he survived the crash. He was definitely on the plane (albeit in utero). Alive & well, hiccupping, turning sommersaults, high kicks, resting on Mom's bladder, foot in the ribs. Think of him as a "stow away". If there was a stow away rescued he would be considered one of the Oceanic 6 whether he had a ticket or not.

Michael as Ben's MOTB. I think Michael & Walt were picked up at sea by the submarine, transported to and deposited on Fiji where Michael signed on as crew on the freighter as part of a deal with Ben to protect Walt. If I'm wrong about that then maybe that's Walt down in the bowels of the ship pounding on the pipes. If it is...why isn't he beating out a cool drum riff? If an albatross falls dead dead dead to the deck of the freighter then I guess we'll know where Walt is.

So the island adventure for the rescued people on Flight 815 lasts somewhere around 4 months. Sun's pregnancy conveniently acts as a measure of time for us.

The captain tells us a viable story which we can surmise os the truth and Kevchael (who works for Ben) tells us not to trust the Captain. Woe is me...who to trust? Of course the best lie is always one in which we admit some of the truth and fabricate the rest. So, The Capt is telling the truth about the staged wreck, but lying about Ben's staging it??

Hurley left NutHaus to go to Korea. So we know his stay there is on a voluntary basis.

AQt first when I realized that Jin is "dead" I figured he was one of the 2 people who surbvived the crash and then died so Sun's pregnancy would be explained to the world. But he and Sun could have done the deed the night before the flight so, that is that. But that makes me wonder who are the 2 who survived the crash but not for long?

Claire. Obviously. Who else would they need to be alive for a while in order to explain something about their rescue? I dunno.

But it has to be important or why contrive it? Lies should always be as simple as possible. Why invent 2 survivors who didn't survive? #1.To explain Aaron. A solid, necessary lie. #2.????

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:
Hurley left NutHaus to go to Korea. So we know his stay there is on a voluntary basis.

Since the future-flash timeline is anything but clear, I don't think the evidence is there to say this. It's perfectly possible that this moment in time preceeds Hurley's visions of Charlie and return to insitutionalization.

The grabber for me in the scene was the implication that there are hard feelings between Hurley/Sun and the rest of the O6. Hurley asks if anyone else has come to visit Sun, and when told they haven't, it makes him happy. In fact, this is the first time we've seen any O6 people interacting with each other on a happy basis. It seems we can look forward to a future plot development that drives a wedge between members of the O6.

quote:

AQt first when I realized that Jin is "dead" I figured he was one of the 2 people who surbvived the crash and then died so Sun's pregnancy would be explained to the world. But he and Sun could have done the deed the night before the flight so, that is that. But that makes me wonder who are the 2 who survived the crash but not for long?

Claire. Obviously. Who else would they need to be alive for a while in order to explain something about their rescue? I dunno.

But it has to be important or why contrive it? Lies should always be as simple as possible. Why invent 2 survivors who didn't survive? #1.To explain Aaron. A solid, necessary lie. #2.????

This is one of my favorite mental chew-toys from the new season. My feeling was that the invented story would have to account for the potential for a living Michael and Walt to show up in the world. But as things have unfolded, the O6's story really has to have Claire alive long enough to give birth, and Michael and Walt aren't likely to need explaining away. At this point, the only scrap of evidence points to Charlie as the other of the two people who are purported to have survived the crash, but not made it off the island alive. This assumes that Penny is not in league with her father, and that her communication with Charlie just before he drowned in the underwater station would require an explanation within the story told by the O6.

quote:

Originally posted by Deep Cover:
At this point, the only scrap of evidence points to Charlie as the other of the two people who are purported to have survived the crash, but not made it off the island alive. This assumes that Penny is not in league with her father, and that her communication with Charlie just before he drowned in the underwater station would require an explanation within the story told by the O6.

That makes sense.

Great review as always, Mac! I do have to say, though, that I don't think Kate was "stupid stupid stupid." (I guess if you're a Juliet apologist, I'm a Kate apologist.) Look at it from Kate's perspective: Juliet lied through her teeth to Kate when they found themselves handcuffed together last season. Juliet definitely hasn't shared all she knows (even w/Jack). I'm sure Kate remembers that the Others kidnapped Claire & experimented on her. Charlotte knocked Kate out rather than explain why she & Daniel were on their way to the Tempest. (One would think that Charlotte might realize that if she said that she & Daniel were trying to keep the island inhabitants from being gassed to death, she'd gain a lot of support & trust.) And it's apparent that the Freighterous Four haven't landed on the island to rescue the Lostaways. Kate likes Sun; they're friends. She (Kate) is trying to protect her friend (Sun). That's not to say that I think Juliet is evil, but I do agree w/hurling that her revelation of Sun's affair to Jin was out of line.

So as pagecarl says, what did we learn? Well, as DOC was end of October 2004, Ji Yeon's birth must have taken place in late July/early August 2005. So the Oceanic 6 must get off the island before then, & based on Ji Yeon's size, Hurley's visit to Sun & Ji Yeon would take place in late summer/early fall 2005. (Although if Sun went into premature labor, her flashforward could have taken place in late May or early June & Hurley's visit mid-summer.) In terms of the order of flash-forwards, as Hurley appears to be pretty together, I would say that his return to Santa Rosa takes place after his visit to Sun, so his visions of Charlie & the game of horse w/Jack are post-Sun visit.

Until the end of the episode, when the bodyguard at the door of the hospital room says, "It's a boy," I was thinking that Jin's & Sun's flashes were both forward, but after that I figured Jin's was a flashback. Okay, neat storytelling technique, to keep us thinking that both Jin & Sun made it off the island. But as pagecarl said above, so what? What was the point of having a Jin flashback here? The one thing that stood out about it was the incident on the street as it paralleled what happened to Desmond in "The Constant." Both Jin & Des were jostled for no apparent reason & they both dropped something that kept them from communicating for a time (Des for just a few minutes; Jin until he could get another cell phone). What's the deal? Why would those incidents be highlighted? Would anyone really get into a taxi & drive away w/a giant panda in the backseat? Even though I'm a country mouse, surely even in the big city the person would notice the panda, realize that someone has already spoken for the taxi, & get out—unless they were actively malicious.

The dates on the tombstone could be explained by Sun's family thinking both she & Jin had died in the crash. They put up a joint memorial tombstone (no bodies to bury) w/their birth & perceived death dates. Sun returned from the island & Jin didn't, so the death date is still correct for him in the eyes of the world. Whether Jin is really dead or just stuck on the island is unknown. Someone over in the comments under the review theorized that Jin gave up his place on the rescue helicopter to Claire, who then is killed somehow during the rescue. If we count Charlie as one of the Elite Eight survivors (per DeepCover's logical reasoning) & Claire as the other, that would round out all of the supposed 815 survivors (the Oceanic Six being Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley, Aaron, & Sun).

Being the name maven that I am, I've been trying to find the meaning of Ji Yeon. So far no luck on the whole name, although one reference to "Ji" says it means "wisdom." I did find a site that says both Jin & Sun are unisex names. "Jin" means "a jewel" & Sun means "goodness." (I guess we can tell which side of good & evil these two are.)

I missed some of the dialogue between Capt. Galt (or is it Gault?), Sayid, & Desmond in the scene w/the black box, but from the episode description over on Lostpedia said, it appears that the Capt.'s dialogue was ambiguous about Ben staging the fake 815 wreckage:

quote:

When they meet Captain Gault, Sayid and Desmond begin to get an idea of the freighter crew’s mission. The captain shows them the flight data recorder (the black box) of Flight 815 and tells them it was obtained by Charles Widmore. He explains that the wreckage was found in the Sunda Trench and included 324 dead bodies. He then explains it was obviously a staged find, but that it is frightening to think about the fact that somebody has the the power and resources to do such a thing, especially about finding 324 bodies. The captain remarks that this is just one of the reasons they need to capture Benjamin Linus.

So Galt does not explicitly say that Ben staged the wreckage, but he certainly implied it...possibly to be misleading.

Speaking of misleading, we don't know for sure that "Kevin" was the one that put the "Don't trust the captain" note through the door for Sayid & Des. undaunted, I was also thinking that it was Walt pounding on the pipes.

DeepCover, the apparent rift between Hurley & Sun & the other Oceanic 6 is intriguing. Perhaps it ties into Hurley's later expressed regret to Jack about going w/Locke—at the time of Sun's flashforward, Hurley still thinks it was the right thing to do to go w/Locke. But it's curious that Hurley, who went w/Locke, ends up aligning w/Sun, who stayed w/Jack.

One thing that struck me was at the very beginning of Sun's flashback, she was preparing to go somewhere. It looked as though she had a bag packed & she was applying lipstick. Where would she have been traveling so late in her pregnancy? When Miss Longthought was on the way, I wasn't supposed to travel after seven months, & I had no health concerns. I would think that Sun's doctors would be very cautious w/her health after spending a good portion of her pregnancy on a (supposedly) deserted island w/no medical care.

Alais, a very good summary. I agree whole heartedly with all of your points.

Since I already committed above that I felt the episode was weak, I can say that I pretty well blew off many of the more obvious elements. For instance, I could see little value in the Jin-Sun love connection scene.

In fact, one of the scenes I found most interesting was the street scene with Jin. It was featured so much that it must have more importance. Also, I wonder if there is some connection to China based on the panda and the hospital scene.

The idea that Walt is banging on the pipes is interesting and a good thought.

Other than that I didn't see much more in the episode.

I continue to wonder how Ben is being characterized as being the leader of some huge enterprise on the mainland in opposition to Widmore. There has thusfar been no evidence of that.

Thanks, pagecarl. After you wrote the bit about the panda, it occurred to me that pandas are black & white, which ties in to the black/white recurring theme. Also, pandas are closely associated w/China (I don't believe they have natural habitat anywhere other than China), so as Paik was kowtowing to the Chinese ambassador to S. Korea, it would make sense that it absolutely had to be a stuffed panda as a gift. But I agree w/you; the street scene has to have some significance that we're not seeing (yet).

I guess we could theorize that Ben's multiple passports & nationalities of money (can money have a nationality?) are evidence that he's got a lot of power in the non-island world.

One interesting note that I found while reading the episode description over in Lostpedia is that the label on the baggie w/Sun's wedding ring does not say Sun's name. Possibly just a translation error, but then again, w/LOST one is never quite sure.

Also, Clementine over in the comments under mac's review provided the translation on the tombstone (from DarkUFO, she said):

quote:

On the left side:
Sun Hwa Baek, born 3/20/1980

The big letters mean his name/his gravestone, Jin Su Kwon

On the right side:
He was born 11/27/1974 and died 9/22/2004

And while on my name search, I looked up Kahana, the freighter's name. In Hawaiian, it means "turning point"; in Aramaic, it means "priest." From there it was just a quick jump to Aaron, as Aaron in the Old Testament is the first high priest. And speaking of Aaron, did anyone notice that he & Ji Yeon are mirror images? Aaron was conceived off-island & born on-island; Ji Yeon was conceived on-island & born off-island.

I think the street scene was just to confuse us to think that a menacing force from Oceanic Airlines was trying to keep Jin from getting to Sun at the birth. The panda was so important because he was "on orders" to give that specific stuffed animal to the Ambassadors baby.Remember he worked for a ruthless man and would take extraodinary measures to fulfill his orders. I realized that it was a dual flashback because it was the first episode that I noticed the scene we were watching would be from the perspective of both Sun and Jin. It was never one person flashing back or forward. I think Jin is alive on the island but they have to pretend he is dead. I also think Ben is holding the oceanic 6 to this lie. Sun is keeing it for Jin, Jack for Claire (his half sister)Kate for Sawyer,Sayid and Hurley for the rest of survivors.

I agree that Aaron is most likely considered one of the Oceanic 6, so we now know who the 6 are.

203040--I do think that Jin is actually dead and not on the island. Why would Hurley say "let's go see him" if he were alive on the island? But it's Lost, so I guess anything is possible.

The question is, how does Jin die in the next three weeks? That scene with Sun at his grave was SO SAD.

Deep Cover, you bring up an interesting point. I wonder what could cause a rift between Kate and Sun. And even Jack and Sun. At this point on the island, they all seem to care about each other and be friends. Maybe Kate couldn't visit because she was dealing with her legal troubles and couldn't leave town.

Alais--I'm with you! I like Kate and I liked her flash-forward episode. Juliet drives me crazy! I think at this point, her intentions are mostly good, but she still makes my skin crawl.

I think Aaron is one of the Oceanic 6 also. He would be a survivor shoved into the lime light when thay were rescued.How they explain him with Kate is the question? I think Hurley might not have been referring to the other Oceanic 6 when he wondered if they were alone, he might have been referring to staff or something. Sun was very well off even before the Oceanic payoff.

If the Jin scenes were a flash forward and not a flash back, could Jin have been living split lives ala Desmond and others who seem to jump from time to time, and somehow, the Island Jin died b/c he was separated from Sun, his constant. So the other Jin lives on...

quote:

Originally posted by mattmak54:
If the Jin scenes were a flash forward and not a flash back, could Jin have been living split lives ala Desmond and others who seem to jump from time to time, and somehow, the Island Jin died b/c he was separated from Sun, his constant. So the other Jin lives on...

It was a flash back; Jin said he had no children; that he had only been married for two months.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: undaunted,

quote:

Originally posted by Deep Cover:

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:
Hurley left NutHaus to go to Korea. So we know his stay there is on a voluntary basis.

Since the future-flash timeline is anything but clear, I don't think the evidence is there to say this. It's perfectly possible that this moment in time preceeds Hurley's visions of Charlie and return to insitutionalization.

The grabber for me in the scene was the implication that there are hard feelings between Hurley/Sun and the rest of the O6. Hurley asks if anyone else has come to visit Sun, and when told they haven't, it makes him happy. In fact, this is the first time we've seen any O6 people interacting with each other on a happy basis. It seems we can look forward to a future plot development that drives a wedge between members of the O6.

You're absolutely right about the possibility of this meeting preceding Hurley's meeting with dead Charlie.

I'm not certain that Hurley & Sun had a falling out with the other 4. He might have been glad the other 4 weren't there because if they had been it was sure to have been a media circus.

What I think is interesting is that Hurley asked something like, "Are the others coming." That sounds like an event. Had it been to see the baby he would have asked, "Has anyone else come?"

So I'm wondering what the event was that Hurley came for that he was wondering if anyone else was coming. Christening? How old was the baby? if it was about 8 weeks old hurley and sun might have been commemorating the anniversary of the crash. Around Dec. 24 Sun is 8 weeks pregnant. July makes it 9 months. 8 weeks later is Sept 22.

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:

I'm not certain that Hurley & Sun had a falling out with the other 4. He might have been glad the other 4 weren't there because if they had been it was sure to have been a media circus.

What I think is interesting is that Hurley asked something like, "Are the others coming." That sounds like an event. Had it been to see the baby he would have asked, "Has anyone else come?"

So I'm wondering what the event was that Hurley came for that he was wondering if anyone else was coming. Christening? How old was the baby? if it was about 8 weeks old hurley and sun might have been commemorating the anniversary of the crash. Around Dec. 24 Sun is 8 weeks pregnant. July makes it 9 months. 8 weeks later is Sept 22.

You're probably right about the event part. Hurley seems like the kind of guy who needs a good reason to put on a suit.

It strikes me that post-rescue timelines are extremely hard to work out for a reason. It’s one ball that, for now, seems well hidden, and deliberately so.

Regarding whether the other four members of the O6 would show, and if not, why not? And why that might make Hurley pleased:

For Sayid, attending this Event to pay his respects to Sun and her new offspring would proba