I may be proven wrong on Wednesday when the next episode airs, but I still firmly believe that Ben is not dead, and have been pondering the possibilities.

For Ben to be dead, this could only happen if Sayid and the other Lostees created a new timeline by traveling back in time. Under the old timeline, Ben grows up, leads the purge, and eventually psychologically torments our heroes in the years 2004 - '07.

One of the theories people seem to have is that by going back in time, the Lostees are changing previous events (even if they don't change fate). I don't believe this to be the case. I believe that them going back in time was always part of fate, and part of the original (and ONLY) timeline. Basically, Sayid and Company going back in time didn't JUST happen, it always happened. Thus, Adult Ben must have always had a memory of meeting Sayid and getting shot by Sayid during his childhood. I believe this to be the case.

Charlotte offers proof for this. She had a vivid memory of Faraday approaching her as a child. This event hadn't happened yet according to the timeline in which we watch the show unfold. Now, if Charlotte already had memories of Faraday approaching her BEFORE he traveled through time, Ben must have already been shot by Sayid in his childhood (and survived).

The timeline is circular. When Faraday says "Whatever Happened, Happened," it should be taken completely literally. Not only did the same major events take place, they were implemented by the exact same people, even if those people happened to be time travelers.

The only hitch in this theory is the fact that LOST puts much emphasis on course correction. That leads me to second-guess myself, because course correction would never be needed if it's impossible to alter past events. There's also the fact that so many forces (Ben, Whidmore, "fate") have been manipulating the Lostees to do certain things as if to prevent an upcoming catastrophe. Such actions would be useless if past events can't be altered. Maybe they are just in denial, or maybe I'm just way off. My brain hurts.

I have the same sense of things.

They go back in time, not to change something that has already happened, but to set something up that has yet to happen?

If "what happened, happened" then they cannot undo something that was done. But they can create a new something in an attempt to mitigate the consequences of whatever happened.

It is counter intuitive...if what happened happened then why is there a need for course correction?

The cat is out of the bag. Can't change what happened when the cat was out, but they can get that cat back in the bag before it does more damage.

I'm beginning to entertain the idea that the ability to time travel is what set off the events that need to be course corrected.

They screwed with something they don't know how to use; sort of like building a hydrogen bomb..."well, shit bob, what do we do with the damned thing now?"

or not.

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:
I have the same sense of things.

They go back in time, not to change something that has already happened, but to set something up that has yet to happen?

If "what happened, happened" then they cannot undo something that was done. But they can create a new something in an attempt to mitigate the consequences of whatever happened.

It is counter intuitive...if what happened happened then why is there a need for course correction?

The cat is out of the bag. Can't change what happened when the cat was out, but they can get that cat back in the bag before it does more damage.

I'm beginning to entertain the idea that the ability to time travel is what set off the events that need to be course corrected.

They screwed with something they don't know how to use; sort of like building a hydrogen bomb..."well, shit bob, what do we do with the damned thing now?"

or not.

Undaunted, I'm glad you seem to share my same sense of organized confusion. Every time I feel like I've made sense of the time travel issue, I end up tying my brain into knots. I end up more and more confused the more I think about it.

Perhaps the most thought out theory I've seen is found at www.Timelooptheory.com. It's very involved and does a nice job explaining certain things that don't seem to make sense (like why doesn't Richard age?), but there are a few holes.

quote:

The timeline is circular. When Faraday says "Whatever Happened, Happened,"

I'm beginning to think that this is the end game. How we arrive at the following scenario is up in the air, but here is how I believe the last episode will play out: (so a potential SPOILER warning applies here, I suppose)

Due to the "incident," time is caught in a loop - the Losties will continue to crash on the island, flash through time, etc. But then...a critical decision point will arrive where two of the Losties can alter the timeline - essentially, they can do something to shake it out of the loop. Thus we end up with the Losties drawing straws (or colored stones) for who will stay behind and sacrifice themselves in order to correct the time flow. My guess is that Kate draws one of the two black stones, and Jack, although he has drawn a white stone, looks in his hand and tells everyone he has the other black stone, thus sacrificing himself and staying with Kate. Together, Jack and Kate do whatever it is they need to do in order to correct the time loop, then 1) they live the remainder of their natural lives on the island, or 2) they die in the process and the Others lay them to rest at the caves (with the stones still in their hands).

The Others/original inhabitants are left in control of the island, which disappears back into the temporal ether, preventing it from falling into the hands of either of the two factions (Widmore and Ben).

The other Losties are froomed to the original flight 815 (including all of those who "died" on the island - this would make a great "reunion show"). They encounter a bit of turbulence, there is a froom, then things calm down and the pilot says, "sorry for the turbulence, but we seem to be out of it now." Flight 815 continues on it way, minus the two passengers who froomed out - Jack and Kate.

The Losties remaining on the plane can be played two ways: 1) they retain no knowledge of island events, so their lives continue uninterrupted, or 2) they all remember what happened, and yet their lives continue uninterrupted.

The key to this is that "whatever happened, happened" applies to events within the time loop, but if the loop can be eliminated, then anything that happened within the loop can be changed/altered, or more likely, completely eliminated.

Just a thought...

quote:

Originally posted by CaptNemo:
The key to this is that "whatever happened, happened" applies to events within the time loop, but if the loop can be eliminated, then anything that happened within the loop can be changed/altered, or more likely, completely eliminated.

That's an interesting thought. I think it is backways though. Whatever happened, happened is true of events outside the time loop. Within the time loop, it's like "do-over". I really think that is the whole point of the time loop...do over 'til you get it right.

Upon re-reading...I think that is what you said!

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:

quote:

Originally posted by CaptNemo:
The key to this is that "whatever happened, happened" applies to events within the time loop, but if the loop can be eliminated, then anything that happened within the loop can be changed/altered, or more likely, completely eliminated.

That's an interesting thought. I think it is backways though. Whatever happened, happened is true of events outside the time loop. Within the time loop, it's like "do-over". I really think that is the whole point of the time loop...do over 'til you get it right.

Upon re-reading...I think that is what you said!

Interesting concept, but I have trouble with it. My challenge is that this theoretical time loop which can be changed also impacts other people. The "ripples of time" is an age-old science fiction concept. (Hurling - note that "ripples of time" is a singular idea, not plural "ripples). The idea might work if the Losties alone were associated with the loop. Unfortunately, no end of other people are pulled in; the other people on Ajira, the other Others in Richard's "Jughead" camp, whoever was piloting the submarine, babies born with Juliet's help, on and on. Each of those people experiences a small ripple as the Losties cycle through the loops. That ripple expands like the ripple of a rock thrown into a calm lake.

Now don't get me wrong. I have no problem going along for the ride. It is only a show, after all. It's just like Ben being shot. I don't care. For all I know, Ben had a book under his shirt which stopped the bullet. It's just obvious that Ben wouldn't die (yet) so it almost bothers me more that the writers even try that shoe on their big fat feet, thinking that we will agree it fits.

The "do it till you get it right" aspect of the time loop was covered by a Star Trek:TNG episode. I remember that it was a good episode, and that it began with the crew playing cards - Data was the one who first realized they were in a time loop. Other than that, I remember nothing else about the episode. Of course, Groundhog Day also covered the same ground, so to speak.

As to the ripples affecting everyone besides the Losties...if we think of time looping like a roller coaster loop, then the car is trapped in the loop, continually circling - and as far as we know, the entire planet is caught in this loop, with only a few people (those who have been in the protective bubble of the island)aware of that fact. If the Losties manage to break the loop, then time will continue along its planned path, and no one but the Losties will be aware of ever having been in the loop.

And it would make more sense, dramatically, for the Losties to remember what had happened - thus learning important life lessons that they will use to better their future lives.

[/QUOTE]

It's just obvious that Ben wouldn't die (yet) so it almost bothers me more that the writers even try that shoe on their big fat feet, thinking that we will agree it fits. [/QUOTE]

They may not have fooled you and me, Pagecarl, but I've patrolled plenty of other boards and a slight majority seem to believe that Ben is sleeping with the fishes.

Capt, speculation isn't a spoiler. No whiteout required.
Carl, you are correct, esp cos you very nicely used quotation marks. I'm happy to see that u r trainable. Well done!
Mythbusters proved that a book won't stop a bullet. But a bullet fired off-center by an assassin who is too emotionally invested in his target might miss vital organs.
I find it odd that almost no one, including Mac, has mentioned Jin. It appears that he is dead, but we're not certain of that either.

So assuming Ben is alive, somehow the Losties have to get back to their time so Ben can recover, live a few more yrs, & then effect the purge. I think this wk or next we shd see what Daniel has been doing, and he will get everyone back to the future. And I am certain they will all remember all of it.

Hurling's goofin on Carl...na na na na na

CaptNemo
I like your hypothesis of the ending. It would make a nice story.