I didn't think it was possible to underestimate Benjamin Linus ... but, DAMN!

Awesome episode. I need to go pick my jaw up off the ground, so enjoy the latest edition of Key Points:

Key Points from "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham"

What a great synopsis. I was kind of waiting for Ben to kill Locke in that scene. However, it was particularly devilish that even after he decided, he still let Locke down from the table first. I guess that way Locke was completely unsuspecting.

Speaking of Locke, he seems to have lost any amount of caution telling a bunch of strangers that he died and was in the plane in a coffin. It's no wonder if they go after him.

The writers also really loaded up on the Locke-as-Jesus-Christ imagery in this imagery. As Locke was on that table, he had his arms sort of stretched out and Ben bowing down before him. Then of course he was resurrected somehow. He doesn't seem to be a ghost (from what we can tell so far).

It seems like the 2nd crash survivors are on the smaller island? In that first scene where Locke is looking at the water, the other island seemed to be the big one, and that fits with Frank taking the canoe.

Finally, I get a little lost on the timeline. Is Locke's visit to Jack what triggers him to start his crazy plane trips? Ben could have made up Jack's flight plans to give Locke hope, but it seems like when Jack would have started his downward spiral.

Gotta agree, Mac, that rivaled Michael killing Ana Lucia & Libby.

I thought Ben's motivations were pretty clear. He originally needed Locke to help get the O6 back to the island. When he got 2 key pieces of info, Locke became a hindrance. Ben knew Hawking's name, but didn't know she was involved or to what extent. He needed Jin's ring to convince Sun to return, and couldn't let Locke prevent that. You could see his buggy little brain spinning on that one.

I still think both Ben & Charles are bad guys. Wondering, though, is it possible the reason Charles hates Desmond is because he had future knowledge of Desmond being involved with the island & dragging Penny into trouble? Except the reason Desmond went on the sailing trip to begin with was to prove his Macho Quotient. Damn confusing time loops. MNIB (my nose is bleeding).

One question, and this could fizzle or could be the stunning conclusion: both factions want Locke on the island. Are they both just finding him wonderfully easy to manipulate & does he end up helping both sides, causing a stalemate? Or do we find at the end that he really is special & he turns out to be the hero? Both Ben & Widmore are defeated & Locke becomes the Island King.

Hurling, I agree absolutely about Ben's motivations regarding John. Once Ben found that Hawking was the "link", Ben became a hinderance. However, that doesn't necessarily fit with Ben feeling that John still had to go back to the island as a surrogate dead body. It's interesting that now, Ben will have no credibility with John (since we know John is once again alive). That sort of throws John solidly into the Widmore camp.

Widmore certainly wasn't all that nice when he was on the island with Richard. Nothing seems to have changed. Whether good or bad, both Ben and Widmore are certainly master manipulators. A war is coming? Between who and who? At this point we are led to believe the Others "belong" to both Ben and Widmore. What about Richard's influence here?

So now we know that we have yet another group on the islands. What is their role to be? We also know that both Ben and John were put down with the new group, not with Jack, Kate and Hurley. Does that imply the new group will be cast in opposition to the original Others, with John at the helm? And what will John do, having Ben essentially at his mercy? John has killed before without remorse.

What does Lapidus know about all this? He took the boat, heading somewhere, apparently with some knowledge. Few people set adrift on an island, together with a group, would leave the group without knowing they were going to something.

I remain curious about how Jin ends up in the Dharma uniform. The preview seems to show Sawyer and the rest in their regular clothing, not in Dharma uniforms. What's up, Jin?

And it seems that Rat Face will take the role of a bad guy. Hiding away that sawed off shotgun is like a Lost clue to evil! It was interesting that there were all sorts of files and papers and whathaveyou that Rat Face was searching through.

The Tunisia link (again) indicates that there are set portals through which the island travels. It seems to me again that having a "set" exit, like Tunisia, tends away from the island actually moving, regardless of what everyone says. And, by the way, if the island HAD moved, why was it in the right place for that same flight path to go into the woo-woo space again, leading to Jack and crew to pop out of zee plane and into the pond? The island had to be in the same place. It didn't move.

Okay, it was obvious that John was going to come back. I mentioned that some time ago. But what about Abadon? I think he is another version of Richard, somehow a construct of the island who is timeless. I'm betting he shows up again.

And finally, just to really, REALLY piss off Dauntless, I hope we see the Ajira plane being found somewhere around the Bearing Straight this time. And did we every figure out how Lapidus was found dead in the cockpit of 815 and also flying the Ajira plane? Did his clean shave fool everyone?

Hurling, I think John is special, but not in the way that would lead him to rule the island. I believe he is a key to things happening on the island in some predetermined way, much like Richard and, as I believe, Abadon. John may lead the Others, or the Ajirites, but only to the end of accomplishing what the island wants.

And I still want to know what Smokia is about? Looking at that hole in the ground clearly shows that the corner rampart of the wall was broken away to expose the Smoke hole, as if it had been inadvertantly covered up and the wall broken away when Smokia came out of the closet.

You're right, pc, as soon as I posted that I realized Locke will never be Island King. He is a very special pawn, with all opposing factions & even the island using him. He has vague notions of being "connected" to the island, but it's really just that his physical injuries have been healed. He has no clue what Jacob is, what the island is, what all the groups are, and especially what he's supposed to be doing in order to lead the Others. He's acting like a prophet, waiting for the island to speak to him so he can pass that along to his followers.
He could still be an accidental hero tho.
Also, your point about the exit to Tunisia and the plane following the same path could give credence to my theory about the island being in another dimension.

Sorry in advance for typos, it's hard to type on a 3" screen. But it is oh so nice to be able to post comments during the day again.

We are almost upon spring Break, and I plan to (hopefully) add to the conversation at that point.

But for now, I think the discussion of the "island moving" seems to revolve around physical movement. I think the island is moving through time -- think of the island as being "out-of-phase" with normal time. We know from Daniel's rocket experiment that time on the island was 35 minutes (or 45 minutes???) out of phase with anything outside of the bubble that surrounds the island. With a seemingly minimum phase shift, the island was still approachable by a single compass degree (perhaps a function of the phase-shift).

So Ben's turning of the FDW (or throwing the wheel off-center) caused a greater shift out-of-phase, causing the island to disappear from view.

I looked again at the map of the floor of the pendulum room, and it looks to be painted on and centered in the south Pacific. This, I believe, is further proof that the island does not move through physical space: the pendulum and the Tandy computers predict where (or when) the phase-shifting intersects with real time.

Also, allow me to point out one of my posts from October of 2005 - HERE. At least I seem to have been partially correct about something. Now I need to see Smokey morph into Vincent (or vice versa).

Carl-

I almost forgot -- my wife and I were watching NCIS this week, and the plot involved a female painter living in Arizona. When she first appeared, my wife and I both said "she looks familiar." Then I saw through the make-up and brushed hair, and recognized everyone's favorite armed, crazy, French, island dweller - Danielle.

I thought you might want to know so you can catch the rerun.

quote:

Originally posted by pagecarl:
It's interesting that now, Ben will have no credibility with John (since we know John is once again alive). That sort of throws John solidly into the Widmore camp.

Does it? This wasn't the first time that Ben killed/attempted to kill Locke. Yet Ben was able to convince Locke to find Jacob's cabin and the FDW.

Locke might not initially trust Ben, but he might start saying "John, it was the only way to get you back, you're so speacial, the island needs you...blah, blah, blah." As usual Locke will fall for it at least one more time, lead Ben to some pivotal island area that only he can get to and almost blow it for everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by CaptNemo:
Carl-

I almost forgot -- my wife and I were watching NCIS this week, and the plot involved a female painter living in Arizona. When she first appeared, my wife and I both said "she looks familiar." Then I saw through the make-up and brushed hair, and recognized everyone's favorite armed, crazy, French, island dweller - Danielle.

I thought you might want to know so you can catch the rerun.

Thank you for thinking of me. I actually have it recorded and have watched it twice, already. Oh, to dream!

Yes PC, the plane being found in the Bering Strait would put me over the freaking edge!
Bering Strait? Slowly I turned, step by step, inch by inch... am I the only person who remembers that old bit?

Re: the episode
I’m flummoxed. Ben got on his knees and he begged, he beseeched, he told Locke how important he is, he saved his life, he was supportive right up until Locke said, "Eloise Hawking" at which time Ben strangled the life out of John Locke.

Why didn’t Ben want Locke to meet Eloise? John knows that the Island won’t let Locke die; he was just slowing him down some and preventing Locke from meeting with Hawking.

In 1954... It appears Alpert answers to Jacob, but is otherwise the head honcho. Widmore is a 17 year old punk. But somewhere between 1954 and The Purge (according to Widmore)he becomes the island’s leader. Ben will kill at the drop of a hat, so why exile or "trick" Widmore when he could have killed him instead? Maybe that has something to do with the rules that Widmore broke when he killed Alex.

Poor John Locke is a pawn.

Frank Lapidus is a hell of a pilot.

When John tells Ben, "I promised Jin." Ben responds, "A promise is a promise." That got me to thinking about how Ben tends to keep his promises and that got me to wondering if the reason Ben remains relentlessly on the path he is on is because he made a promise to someone.

There is nothing to make us think Helen is actually dead. Although I thought it interesting she is said to have died of a brain aneurysm.

I think its a safe bet that Dharma appeared on the island under Widmore's regime. Dharma&Widmore are on the same side.

Was Penny born on the island?

Who said Jacob didn't like technology? Was that Ben? Because if that is a true statement, then it would seem we can deduce that Jacob opposed Dharma. And then we can deduce that the teams are Dharma/Widmore vs Jacob/Alpert.

And both sides want Locke dead or alive.

Caesar is a Widmore plant and so is Ilana.

I think it's a good bet that there is a price on Widmore's head on the island. I am still of the opinion that Widmore's intent is to exploit the island for personal gain, while Alpert and Ben are trying to prevent him from doing it.

PC: Lapidus wasn't found dead in the 815 cockpit; remember? he was replaced at the last minute by his friend on that flight.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: undaunted,

And I wonder... if a war is coming and the opposing sides are Widmore & Dharma vs Jacob, Alpert & The Others, that seems to be a lopsided sort of battle unless the out-numbered guys have a hydrogen bomb and something to detonate it with.

Would The Others be willing to blow the island to smithereens rather than let its power fall into the wrong hands? Would that explosion cause some sort of chain reaction that would be catastrophic on a planetary level?

Hi everyone,

I am totally confused with the show now, saying that I have been for the last two seasons.

Some points I did not quite get.....

1. What time line are they now in on the Island. Jin turned up in Dharma clothes last week and in the van. Now unless Jin brought the van to the Island and has taken to dressing as a Dharma person, then it is the early 80's late 70's. Yet Caesars people are wandering around the small Island and chilling out in Dharma hatches like there is no one around. They seemed to have been there for a few days at least. Do Dharma not watch that station. Is it an "others only" special station Dharma do not know about?
2. In reference to point #1 would Dharma not notice a plane landing?
3. How come Locke was not paralysed after he left the Island. Does the Island permanently heal you?
4. Ben and Locke were not sucked out the plane like Hurley and Jack et al. I get that to mean that the Island did not want Ben or Locke to come back.
5 I guessed Locke would come back to life but was it just not a little too obvious? And yes I do not think he is ghost like Christian.

Finally I am not sure still that Ben is bad. When he comes round he will convince Locke he knew he would be resurrected. Remember doubting Thomas last week, I think Ben already knew Locke had to be killed and for some reason suicide was not the way to do it. Anyway the Island would not have let Locke kill himself just like Micheal was not allowed to.

To sum up, what time line? Ben is still good?

Thats all I got!

OK for a show that often jumps the shark, Locke coming back alive is a rocket ship over the shark.
I mean come on, I thought the writers were going to use the spiders or some island magic pill, that would be cheezy but this is a tough one to swallow.

Charles lies as well as Ben.Why does anyone think that he was the leader? And if he was, how did he get so powerful in the real world. Charles Widmore seems to be a person, and a name, that can get anything he wants, not something that he could do from the island for thirty years.

I think he and Eloise left the island after the us army came. If they are original others, I suspect they wouldn't age on the island but could not have kids. He goes off, has a kid and gets rich, but wait, he realizes he will die of old age. Got to get back to the island.

London - new survivors are in the show's present of 2007, so Dharma is long gone.

I suspect that Locke and Ben don't go back in time cause they left island via the wheel. So I doubt Sun is in that time period.

Finally, if the island is so hard to find, how did Dharma do it all those years. In this I am again talking about the hatch and its supplies? Remember the post 2000 washers. Food on a regular basis. Dharma seemed to be getting supplies to the hatch for years after the purge. Does this mean that Widmore is not attached to Dharma at all? If you could drop Apollo bars, could you not land troops on the island?

Thanks Stock,

You are right, Kate, Jack et al jumped but Locke and Ben did not.

I agree I guess Sun jumped.

The only people we know jumped are Kate, Jake, and Hurley.

Sun could still be in current time.

I agree that she could be, but if three jumped,why not all?

Although the writers are leaving logic behind, it would make sense that all of Oceanic survivors are caught in the same temporal rift. When the six (or at least five of them) cross the island's space (and right above it, at the right moment) they get dragged back it. Of course, logic would assume that like Sawyer and company they should be at the same spot no matter what time period, but I think 1000 meters above the island would be a bad thing, so the writers were loose again.

And we might find out that Desmond's incident pulled down both planes as it has some time travelling properties (thus him seeing the "future" and Charlie's deaths.)

It just occurred to me that Richard Alpert exhibits all the behaviors of the successful bureaucrat. Something very Borgian, Machiavellian about his persona.

Ostensibly, he does not seek to wield power, he wishes only to serve those in power. Yet, he is responsible for some pivotal decisions made by the "leader". Most obviously, the death of The Man From Tallahassee.

So if Alpert is the manipulative, self serving bureaucrat then he will shift alliance to the one who assures his continued place at the right hand of the one in power.

Ben told Locke "Fate is a fickle bitch". For Ben it is. For Locke it is, for Widmore it is, for Desmond it is...but for Alpert it isn't. As far as we have seen, Alpert is the only constant in all of it. Even Jacob's position is in jeopardy, while Alpert firmly remains in his position of counselor and guide.

I realize it might be that Alpert is truly a loyal and devoted servant of Jacob and everything he does is for Jacob.

Still...I'm keeping my eye on the fellow named for Richard Alpert aka Baba Ram Dass, whose most famous book is "Be Here Now" and whose name "Ram Dass" means servant of God.