Hi everyone!

The latest edition of Key Points is now available:

Key Points from "316"

Remind me to never fly Ajira Air ... while transporting a dead guy ...

I'm sad to say it, but methinks we have seen the last of Penny. Poor Des.

Over next door DocH speculates that Ben is wearing Christian's shoes. I like that idea.

I'm thinking that because Guam is a US territory, Kate could board the plane without a passport.

I think Ben turned Sayid in, took the cop to where Sayid was and Sayid got a jump on Ben and caused him some harm before the cops could stop him.

Our sweet Hurley bought up all those seats to protect all those unsuspecting people. When news breaks that the plane was lost, all those angry people are going to be so grateful that the crazy selfish man bought all the seats up.

Kate could well be pregnant...is probably pregnant...is pregnant.Yeah, Kate is pregnant.

I'm loving Frank Lapidus; very nice to see him back.

Say what we will about Ben Linus, he is no slacker, he is one tough mofo who is willing to take a beating to accomplish his goals.

I think Kate left Aaron with Claire's mom.

The island does actually move. that settles that unless Hawking is as big a liar as Ben.

Hawking sure didn't look impressed by Desmond's message from Faraday. In fact I though she looked a bit disdainful.

I'm not sure the plane did crash. Maybe once they were in the area of the island, a time flash was triggered and they moved into the new time but the plane didn't. That's under the same theory of Jin and the Zodiac crew moving with the time flashes in the water. When the Oceanic 6 were in the helicoptor they might have been outside of the radius.

I predict future episodes on how Kate, Hurley and Sayid made it to that plane. Kate had to have been threatened with something (to Aaron or to Clementine?) in order to go back.

Also on the preview for next week (so don't read ahead if you avoid them) - it looked like Ben was kneeling down in front of Locke as he was getting ready to hang himself. That seemed weird - anyone else catch that?

I think Ben's "side job" before getting on the plane was to get Sayid. I think he deliberately went to see Sayid, knowing he would beat him pretty badly, but had the marshal there (whom he knew) to witness it and arrest him. The marshal then of course brought him on the plane.

I think it was a solid episode, kind of like toast with a thin coat of butter - it will keep you alive but there isn't much excitement. It wasn't a supreme pizza episode.

It was obvious that all of the Losties were going to somehow be on the plane. Had to happen. The shoe idea on John was actually somewhat creative.

The plane scenes made no sense, however. In every past event, serious things happened, one way or the other, while in the influence of the island. Either the plane crashes, as in Flight 815, or there was a time travel incident.

Well, we know there was a plane crash since in past episodes we saw the wreckage of an Ajira flight littering the beach while the Losties were time shifting. So, based on that, we know there was a crash. Yet with the identifiable wreckage found on the beach, how did the Losties end up inland in a pool? With jack up above ready to make a dramatic dive (stupid - he could have crushed his spine) to save Hurley and his guitar?

Based on past shows it can't be the time shifts. Previous time shifts have, without excaption, resulted in the Losties remaining exactly where they started, just in another time period. They never once move position.

So having Hurley, Jack and Kate end up in the pond, unhurt, was bogus. And where are Sayid and Sun? Will the marshall end up still shackled to Sayid (a clear comparison to Kate and the cop) and become a major character?

And what about some speculation about Jin being a Dharmite? If he was last seen reunited with Sawyer et. al., are they all shifted back and working for Dharma?

The preview made it pretty clear that Ben lied once again about knowing that John killed himself. Want to bet that we find that Ben convinced John to do that with an explanation of his sacrifice as a "replacement" in the coffin?

quote:

Originally posted by pagecarl:
(stupid - he could have crushed his spine)

Seriously...

quote:

Originally posted by pagecarl:
Based on past shows it can't be the time shifts. Previous time shifts have, without excaption, resulted in the Losties remaining exactly where they started, just in another time period. They never once move position.

The O6 could have fallen from the sky, but even as I write that doesn't make sense as they would be about 35,000 ft in the air. Maybe that is why Jack feels invincible.

It seems it was more than a time shift, then.

quote:

Originally posted by Theoldred:

quote:

Originally posted by pagecarl:
(stupid - he could have crushed his spine)

Seriously...

At first I thought that too. But that was the lagoon where they found the marshal's case with the guns, so presumably the Losties were fqamiliar with it. Thus Jack could have known about the depth of the lagoon and that it was safe to dive in.

PageCarl: Did we see wreckage of 316? I remember seeing the water bottles but that is all.

I think there are two separate events: The plane crashed; there was a froom. Or visa versa.

Now that I think about it, there might have been a froom with 815 too...it would explain how all those people weren't broken into little pieces after falling 20,000 ft (give or take a few feet) from the sky.

Certainly the image of Jack laying intact and none the worse for wear on the ground after the Ajira incident indicates the same thing happened with 815.

So it's versa visa...some of them were froomed and then the plane crashed. Some of them were plucked from the plane before impact to prevent injury/death.

Which leads me to believe that the reason Hawking/Ben wanted as many of the original 06 on that plane along with a dead body (and hopefully a pregnant woman) is because the mechanism that plucked them from the sky was scanning for a specific set...dead man, pregnant woman, prisoner, doctor, musician, hurleybird, and an island citizen. That island citizen with that specific set of people tells the mechanism, "This is the right group; bring them down".

The mechanism that plucks them from the sky doesn't need a complete set, it just needs to be certain that it is mostly the right people.
And it could be that Lapidus was an important part of the set that was missing on the 815 flight. Unlike his friend who was killed, Lapidus would have survived the crash unscathed.

So because Michael and Walt were missing as identifiers on the Ajira flight, Lapidus' presence was necessary to help the mechanism recognize that this was the right plane.

or not.

Since they all believed they were going abck to the island I wonder why they weren't more suitably dressed (especially after Kate's walking boots comment to Jack).

Or did they even try to recreate the same clothing style as on 815?

If I'd been on 316, I would definitely have been dressed for the jungle.

And - did anyone else look at beardless Lapidus and think "he's turned into Billy Bob Thornton"?

The one thing revealed in this episode that sticks in my craw is the "confirmation" that the island moves. I am inclined to reject the moving island explanation.

When Hawking says the island moves, I think she is either lying or speaking metaphorically.

I am able to buy into the "special properties" concept... magnetic something or other emanating from beneath the earth's surface or some such thing. The man who spoke to Rose in Australia says Ayer's Rock sits above one of those spots.

But if the island is moving geographically then are we to understand that the properties don't emanate from beneath the surface of the earth, but from within the island (or Ayer's Rock) itself?

A floating island? Where did it come from? It's not volcanic. Have we ever seen a caldera on the island? Did it break off from a larger land mass? Is it the remnant of an asteroid that hit the ocean a bazillion years ago, then floated to the surface and vegetation grew on it and... I dunno.

And remember that it is not one island, but two that are moving geographically from one location to another location. And if they are actually moving, wouldn't satellite images from space spot them?

So now I have two questions that nag at me:
1. wtf...a moving island?
2. Why would someone plant the wreckage of a plane some 4000 miles in the opposite direction of the starting point of the flight plan?

I suppose if the islands could move, then so could the planted wreckage. Goofy stuff.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: undaunted,

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:
The one thing revealed in this episode that sticks in my craw is the "confirmation" that the island moves. I am inclined to reject the moving island explanation.

When Hawking says the island moves, I think she is either lying or speaking metaphorically.

I am able to buy into the "special properties" concept... magnetic something or other emanating from beneath the earth's surface or some such thing. The man who spoke to Rose in Australia says Ayer's Rock sits above one of those spots.

But if the island is moving geographically then are we to understand that the properties don't emanate from beneath the surface of the earth, but from within the island (or Ayer's Rock) itself?

A floating island? Where did it come from? It's not volcanic. Have we ever seen a caldera on the island? Did it break off from a larger land mass? Is it the remnant of an asteroid that hit the ocean a bazillion years ago, then floated to the surface and vegetation grew on it and... I dunno.

And remember that it is not one island, but two that are moving geographically from one location to another location. And if they are actually moving, wouldn't satellite images from space spot them?

So now I have two questions that nag at me:
1. wtf...a moving island?
2. Why would someone plant the wreckage of a plane some 4000 miles in the opposite direction of the starting point of the flight plan?

I suppose if the islands could move, then so could the planted wreckage. Goofy stuff.

Dauntless, such language! "WTF"??? Really!

While I have tended to discount the island actually moving, there has been some presentation which would lead in that direction, however improbable.

First, we have the polar bears. Where did they come from? One might suggest the island was once by the pole.

While the wreckage being found in the "wrong" place might be analysed as being a Dharma deception (a DD), it could also be argued that the island was where the plane crashed, but moved.

It is also good to remember Lost history. WTF has happened to the second island? That was the Dharma home island. We have not seen even a hint of two islands for some time. Are both islands moving together? The two island scenario seemed to be a pretty cool concept when it happened, only to be discarded by the writers.

I'm not sure that a moving island or floating island is any more difficult for me to consume than a disappearing island. If, for instance, Alcatraz was suddenly gone, would it be any more accurate to say it moved than that it disappeared?

No, we have not seen a caldera. The special powers of the island concept seems to be a given. I accept it for the sake of the show but don't generally buy the idea in real life. Sedona is another place people claim holds special power. There are no end of woo-woo people selling crystals to suckers - I mean tourists - trying to "tap into the source". Sorry. Other than making big money, none of the woo-woo warriors seem to have attained a greater awareness. Still, it works great for the show.

There remain many unanswered questions. In another thread there was/is a discussion of the energy requirement for time travel. In truth, we don't know. As people discover more and more about our physical world, it might be that we simply have not yet identified the simple power source which control time. Humans certainly don't know all there is to know in our world. By the same token, how do the Losties go from Ajira at 38,000 feet to a pond?

quote:

Originally posted by pagecarl:

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:
So now I have two questions that nag at me:
1. wtf...a moving island?
2. Why would someone plant the wreckage of a plane some 4000 miles in the opposite direction of the starting point of the flight plan?

Dauntless, such language! "WTF"??? Really!

First, we have the polar bears. Where did they come from? One might suggest the island was once by the pole.

It is also good to remember Lost history. WTF has happened to the second island? That was the Dharma home island. We have not seen even a hint of two islands for some time. Are both islands moving together? The two island scenario seemed to be a pretty cool concept when it happened, only to be discarded by the writers.

WTF, indeed, Undaunted - I was favorably impressed with your vocab. Certain words should be included in almost every sentence, IMFO. PC is just too PC. And a hypocrite to boot. But I will be nice to him because tomorrow is his birthday and he's quite ancient already. Finish your cake & ice cream before the show, dear, so you don't accidentally choke when something exciting happens.

Dharma brought the bears on a cargo plane, no mystery anymore.

I think both islands move (or whatever they're doing) together, and the plot hasn't required mention of the 2nd one. Remember when we complain about not seeing something for awhile, we get stuck with Paulikki. It's only 45 min once/wk. Maybe when the series ends, they'll release the 7 volume set with more details - Harry Potter & the Weird Island(s), Harry Potter & the Miscarriages, Harry Potter & the Threesome...

F'in A! I have a foul mouth and that is all there is to that. Thank you Hurling, for appreciating that there are some words that are too expressive to give up. The F word is a favorite of mine.

PageCarl you said, "While the wreckage being found in the "wrong" place might be analysed as being a Dharma deception (a DD), it could also be argued that the island was where the plane crashed, but moved."

Well....ok. Except the wreckage in the Sundra Trench isn't the wreckage of Flight 815; we saw the wreckage of 815 in pieces on the island.

So it's back to the same old same old....who sunk that plane and why did they sink it there? What does the rest of the world think happened to that plane on its way from Sydney to Los Angeles that it wouldn't be very, very odd to find it off the coast of Java?

Because it seems to me finding that wreckage 4000 miles in the opposite direction of it's starting point would raise more questions than not finding it at all.

If I don't check in tomorrow evening, let me wish a very Happy Happy Birthday to you PC!

quote:

A floating island? Where did it come from?

As soon as I heard the bit about the island moving, I immediately thought of Laputa (given the show's literary bent):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laputa

Not only is this an allusion that screams Dharma Initiative, it may be a kind of double allusion, since Laputa is also the ultimate target for Maj. Kong's plane in "Dr. Strangelove". (After "Jughead", you would have thought I would have thought of this right away, but I only realized the possible Strangelove connection just now.)

quote:

Originally posted by gnomon:

quote:

A floating island? Where did it come from?

As soon as I heard the bit about the island moving, I immediately thought of Laputa (given the show's literary bent):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laputa

Not only is this an allusion that screams Dharma Initiative, it may be a kind of double allusion, since Laputa is also the ultimate target for Maj. Kong's plane in "Dr. Strangelove". (After "Jughead", you would have thought I would have thought of this right away, but I only realized the possible Strangelove connection just now.)

Wow!

I think Ben is all beaten up because he has either killed or tried to kill penny,
I can't think of anything else he had to do on mainland except promise to kill penny, but maybe Desmond jumped in and saved his woman.
or maybe baby Charlie is yet another child with bizzaro powers.

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:

quote:

Originally posted by gnomon:

quote:

A floating island? Where did it come from?

As soon as I heard the bit about the island moving, I immediately thought of Laputa (given the show's literary bent):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laputa

Not only is this an allusion that screams Dharma Initiative, it may be a kind of double allusion, since Laputa is also the ultimate target for Maj. Kong's plane in "Dr. Strangelove". (After "Jughead", you would have thought I would have thought of this right away, but I only realized the possible Strangelove connection just now.)

Wow!

Did you notice that in "Namaste" Sawyer calls Hurley "Kong" - as in, perhaps, "Maj. T.J. 'King' Kong"?

True, but he's always called him Kong because of his girth, just like calling him Baby Huey, or one of the many other nicknames.