Hi everyone!

The latest edition of Key Points is now available:

Key Points from "There's No Place Like Home, Part 1"

Keeping track of all the comings and goings in this episode was tough, but the set-up for the finale certainly looks interesting.

Yikes..could bye-bee Aaron be Jack's nephew AND brother?

Cross posting my blogservations:

I found it difficult to be engaged by this episode. It had the same infirmity as the last three Star Wars movies: you can’t really be surprised or thrown by plot twists when you know how the story must end. There’s no cliffhanger suspense, for example, in Jack’s bleeding wound or in Hurley being with Ben and Sawyer at the Orchid, since we’ve already seen them get off the island. I don’t find the process of moving them from their present circumstance to the hold of that military transport nearly as interesting as the writers seem to. I can’t bring myself to care much about the contents of another mysterious hatch, when the future plotline conflict has already been revealed to go well beyond small island mysteries such as those hatches. There’s a weird discontinuity in watching things happen at breakneck speed while being impatient for things to happen.

For me, the flash-forwards have passed from interesting and novel new twist to the storytelling to a gigantic string of buzz-killing spoilers. A lot of the show made me feel like I was watching a rerun. I knew Hurley was going to greet his restored car the moment that Cheech told him he wanted to show him his present. I knew that Nadiya was the one who wanted to see Sayid before they said it. I knew that Jack was going to find out Claire was his sister the moment that conversation started. The only one of those scenes where the acting worked well enough to make me care was the reaction shot we got from Naveen Andrews.

I spent the entire night (okay - 10 minutes) trying to think of much to say about this episode, standing alone by itself. Other than as a setup for the finale there wasn't much meat.

The Orchid was fairly cool. The aboveground structures reminded me a a hundred-year-old sugar cane plantation I visited on the island of St. Lucia.

It was also interesting that Ben told John how to get to the secret rooms of the Orchid but not what to do when he got there. Is there a big red button labeled "push to move island"?

I still wonder what will happen to the freighter. First, it's only an island hopping freighter, not an open ocean ship. It is gettiing ready to be a ship on the bottom of the sea. It isn't enough that we know, as most had guessed, that Keamys "button" is wired to the ship. Of course, I wonder why he would want to blow up the freighter, but that is another issue. More, several "throw away" Losties are now on the freighter, but so are Sun and Aaron.

Is it just me, or is it no longer as much fun to watch Ben get the crap slapped out of him?

And sorry, but I'm not buying a 12-foot Zodiac running any distance through the sea, especially overloaded. I have run that exact boat many times. Four people is overloaded, and Hurley counts as two. And that little motor would barely get two people up on plane, let alone six. No way. A 30-minute 'copter trip back and forth between the island and freighter would take that Zodiac 8 hours. Sorry that I actually look for some reality.

Note that the raft shown on the beach on Sumba with the O6 walking up to be saved is not the Zodiac that Sayid is using. Where does this new raft come from?

I did wonder about the significance of Sun buying her dad's company. Given that Jin is on the freighter, does Sun get off with Aaron and Jin blows up?

Other than making Aaron his relative, what does it really matter at this point that Claire is Jack's half sister?

Oh, yes. And after a long absence, the numbers are back! Long live the numbers! Next to return - Walt?

And at this point I don't know that I really CARE who is in the coffin.



All in all, Dauntless and Hurling's discussion about hanged and hung is more interesting. Right now I have Dauntless up a half point. Her "hung" comment is worth a full point but she loses a half by including Vacaville, a real pit (where my grandmother lived).

Great review as always Mac! BTW...Your LOST review is, in my opinion, the best on the internet.

I agree with pagecarl and patcon...this episode was not so engaging. Sort of a mezzanine episode, a stop on the way to the top floor.

So....It is confirmed that Kate is claiming to be Aaron's biological mother. She was 6 months pregnant when she boarded Flight 815. My immediate thought is how do they explain that the authorities didn't know she was pregnant? But I don't know that all women are given pregnancy tests when they are incarcerated.I don't even know that Kate was ever in custody in Australia. The US Marshall went to fetch her himself from the farmer...no cops. More like a bounty hunter thing, came in, nabbed her, maybe a stop at the US Embassy for a passport, put her on the plane to LA.

Does anyone else think that Aaron is freakishly BIG and well developed for a 5 week old infant?

My pet peeve is still my pet peeve....the matter of the plane crashing in the wrong ocean was not addressed. The reporters didn't ask anything about it so I guess there was a credible explanation given.

Pre-rescue The Oceanic 6 are scattered hither and yon. It will be interesting to see how they all come together for removal from the island.
But since no socks made it back to the real world, I'm thinking the freighter will blow.

If it doesn't blow, it will be interesting to see how they neutralize that wall of c-4.

Does anyone else have the unsettling feeling that Locke will screw up big time? Screw up in the same vein (or vain, as the case might be) as "destroying the computer so the numbers can't be entered" big time?

I just have this sense of Locke being the ultimate puppet, we can almost see his strings!
To me, there is nothing heroic about him. For all his showy juju/mojo stuff, he's not very in touch with himself. He's always yelling, "Don't tell me what I can't do!" But he is ready & willing to do anything he is told as long as it feeds his perception of himself. He murdered Naomi on the order of Taller Ghost Walt. Using Sawyer as his weapon he committed patricide for crying out loud! Why? Because Ben told him he had to in order to learn the secrets of the island. He's a puppet I tell you and I think when he goes to think for himself he will screw up bigtime again, just like he did with the hatch.

Jack & Sawyer would have happily abandoned Locke to his "destiny" but they went in to rescue Hugo. Funny.

The contrived "Plus 2" of the Oceanic 6 who were supposed to have survived the crash, but died on the Indian Ocean island... more intriguing now than when we first heard it because it seems according to spoilers that:
Spoiler Michael will not be the one in the coffin

I guess Sun got one helluva settlement from Oceanic! She would have been compensated as a survivor, she would have been compensated as a widow, and the baby would have been compensated for the loss of her father.

Which brings me to this: What's up with Oceanic Airlines? That's no ordinary settlement...that's major "Buy controlling interest of Paik Industries" hush money.

that' all I got.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: undaunted,

quote:

Originally posted by pagecarl:
All in all, Dauntless and Hurling's discussion about hanged and hung is more interesting. Right now I have Dauntless up a half point. Her "hung" comment is worth a full point but she loses a half by including Vacaville, a real pit (where my grandmother lived).

Don't I get a point for the veiled reference to the guy being a guest of the State of California?

Vacaville is Vacaville but give it credit where it's due: It always smells delicious, like fried onions! I was never able to drive through without craving a burger w/onion rings.

Better than Castro Valley which reeks of raw brussell sprouts.

Thanks mac, great review as always! We'll miss you in two weeks but will look forward to vacc's review & your comments.

Just a few observations:

Charlotte is an idiot. And a bitch.

Danny is enjoying his "heroic" role.

Saltines are bad enough when fresh.

Anyone else notice Sawyer's reference to Bensylvania as "New Otherton"? Funny...

The whole island-as-sentient-being is getting more annoying each episode. It was a stretch when Tom first brought it up, & now it seems to be a convenient out whenever TPTB want to manufacture an excuse for someone to not get killed. Are we supposed to assume that the island wanted Alex, Danielle, etc., to be killed, then? Or was it off-duty & missed its cue to wipe out Keamy's team's guns?

I'm not an economist & don't know much about the process of buying a controlling interest in a company, but I thought it was rather unrealistic to make a plot point of Sun buying a controlling interest in her father's company. However, it was *very* satisfying in terms of sticking it to Mr. Paik. Sun is more her father's daughter than perhaps she'd like to admit.

The whole Kate-Aaron storyline teeters extremely close to total implausibility...but unfortunately most of Kate's storyline over these four years has done the same. I think she could have been a lot more interesting character w/better backstory explanations & continuity.

As far as it being Claire's mom who shows up at Christian's memorial service & spills the beans to Jack, I think it would have been more realistic for it to have been Claire's aunt. As several reviewers have mentioned, Claire's mom seemed to be in a permanent vegetative state.

Loved Ben's instructions to Locke, especially the part about which plant to look behind. Does Locke know his botany as well as Ben obviously does?

A reviewer commented that "Sayid and Nadia are running a close second to Des and Penny in my awesome love story rankings." I would have to agree...if someone looked at me the way Sayid looked at Nadia I think I'd turn into a puddle of melted butter. Hopefully Des & Penny's final outcome is better than Sayid & Nadia's.

Re the Numbers showing up in Hurley's car: Poor Hurley. Those numbers seem to be haunting him more than anyone else on the show...actually, do the Numbers show up in anyone else's backstory, or is it just Hurley's? If it is just Hurley who's pursued by the Numbers, why him? Have we considered the possibility that Hurley's hallucinating & seeing the Numbers in places that they're not?

Re the O6 Big Lie: When Sun is asked about Jin, she says, after some significant glances w/Jack, that her husband never made it off the plane. And as another reviewer pointed out, there must have been three people who died post-crash: eight survived, three died, Kate "gave birth" to Aaron. 8-3=5+1=6. Will TPTB catch/deal w/that?

I'm thinking that it was Jack who cut a deal to participate in The Big Lie, assuming that he was speaking for all of the O6.

undaunted, agree totally w/your assessment of Locke.

Finally, the idea of a rational explanation of LOST at this point is pretty unlikely, but I'm still enjoying the ride!

Pagecarl loses a point for continuing to call Undaunted "Dauntless." Correct me if I'm wrong, U, but wasn't that your name for only about a day?

Nothing else to add that hasn't already been said, here or on the recap page. Off to get screwdrivered. Have a nice weekend, everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by hurling:
Pagecarl loses a point for continuing to call Undaunted "Dauntless." Correct me if I'm wrong, U, but wasn't that your name for only about a day?

Nothing else to add that hasn't already been said, here or on the recap page. Off to get screwdrivered. Have a nice weekend, everyone.

I am Undaunted, previously known as Intrepid. I have no independent recollection of ever having been Dauntless. I always fancied it was pagecarl's term of endearment for me.

Enjoy your evening. I'm considering mai tai-ing one on my own self.
_____________

Don't know if anyone else missed this Sawyerism last nite (I missed it until another poster mentioned it) In context of the hitherto hirsute Jack being body builder smooth in episode before last, it's pretty funny!>> When Sawyer sees the blood on Jack's shirt he asked, "Cut yourself shaving?"

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:

quote:

Originally posted by hurling:
Pagecarl loses a point for continuing to call Undaunted "Dauntless." Correct me if I'm wrong, U, but wasn't that your name for only about a day?

Nothing else to add that hasn't already been said, here or on the recap page. Off to get screwdrivered. Have a nice weekend, everyone.

I am Undaunted, previously known as Intrepid. I have no independent recollection of ever having been Dauntless. I always fancied it was pagecarl's term of endearment for me.

Enjoy your evening. I'm considering mai tai-ing one on my own self.

You are on the mark! A term of endearment, it is. As long as that's okay, you will be forever Dauntless.

I think you have your Castros mixed. Castroville is the artichoke capital of California. Oh, I love artichokes dipped in mayo! Yummmmm. Castro Valley (my home town) is now a bedroom community for the rest of the prosperous Bay Area. And there is yet another Castro Valley way up north near the Oregon border. Our mail sometimes went there by mistake, before the popular use of zip codes.


And as far as Alais' comments above;

I agree that -

the Kate-Aaron line is a bit stretched. On the other hand, it is not common to give a pregnancy test after taking a fugitive in custody so it is at least possible.

Yes, Aaron is a BIG boy for his "big lie" age. On the other hand, my dad has been digitizing old pictures a few at a time and sending them to me. I was as big as Aaron at that young age so it is possible.

I wonder more about Aaron having no hair at all. Is it television child abuse to Nair a child's head?

If Ben was telling me about the plant hiding the elevator I would have been Lost.

Regarding Sun buying controlling interest in dad's company; if it is a publically held company she only needs to buy enough shares to hold 51 percent. The two wise men told dad, before Sun walked up, that five banks were used. That could imply five banks were used to buy shares from various shareholders so as to give no warning of an impending takeover. Now, if it were a privately held company, that makes it a bit more of a reach for Sun to take over

hurley and the numbers? We still don't have a clue what in the heck the numbers mean, let alone why hugo is bedeviled by them.

And if Hugo doesn't take the car, how does he wreck it in the police chase as shown in previous episodes?

PageCarl:
I am in fact, Undaunted so being forever dauntless makes perfect sense to me.

Right you are, I got my Castros confused. Castroville...stinky stinky place to be stranded while hitch hiking.

Artichokes! I could live on them. So delicious. I prefer to dip them in melted butter. I cook them with tons of garlic in the water so they get infused with the garlic flavor.

There's a little restaurant called Duarte's near the coast on the San Francisco peninsula. It serves the most incredible cream of artichoke soup! And a killer cream of chili soup too. sigh. dammit pagecarl....Now I want an artichoke.

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:
PageCarl:
I am in fact, Undaunted so being forever dauntless makes perfect sense to me.

Right you are, I got my Castros confused. Castroville...stinky stinky place to be stranded while hitch hiking.

Artichokes! I could live on them. So delicious. I prefer to dip them in melted butter. I cook them with tons of garlic in the water so they get infused with the garlic flavor.

There's a little restaurant called Duarte's near the coast on the San Francisco peninsula. It serves the most incredible cream of artichoke soup! And a killer cream of chili soup too. sigh. dammit pagecarl....Now I want an artichoke.

I wish I could buy you one, cooked to perfection with a cauldron of melted butter. Unfortunately, by the time artichokes get to our little town they have travelled a rough road. Still .... I have made myself hungry, too. I cannot imagine them being much better in your flatlands.

And yes, I know the smell of Castroville. I hitched a fair amount in my youth and there were a few places NOT to be stuck in, for sure.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: pagecarl,

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:

quote:

Originally posted by hurling:
Pagecarl loses a point for continuing to call Undaunted "Dauntless." Correct me if I'm wrong, U, but wasn't that your name for only about a day?

Nothing else to add that hasn't already been said, here or on the recap page. Off to get screwdrivered. Have a nice weekend, everyone.

I am Undaunted, previously known as Intrepid. I have no independent recollection of ever having been Dauntless. I always fancied it was pagecarl's term of endearment for me.

Enjoy your evening. I'm considering mai tai-ing one on my own self.
_____________

Don't know if anyone else missed this Sawyerism last nite (I missed it until another poster mentioned it) In context of the hitherto hirsute Jack being body builder smooth in episode before last, it's pretty funny!>> When Sawyer sees the blood on Jack's shirt he asked, "Cut yourself shaving?"

Hate to prove you wrong about your own name, lovey...well, no, we all know I'm loving it...

Click here for Undaunted's name change

I knew I remembered it correctly. (Note my obnoxious flame a few posts down.)
(Not denying pagecarl's affection, but he didn't think of it. BTW, my ladies tonight (whom I've known for 41 yrs) were complaining about my too-complete memory.)

Artichokes, pagecarl? Are you aware that they are a VEGETABLE? Why, how healthy of you! Hope you use extra fat mayo, or you'll spoil my whole image of you.

And speaking of images - I'm SURE the last time I saw that photo(shop) of you, there was someone else in it. A cute lil newlywed from Up North Country...

Aside from Aaron's size, there's a pretty big difference in development between 5 wks & 12 wks. Claire delivered within a wk or 2 of landing, didn't she? I think Kate would've done better to make him at least 8 wks. Plenty of women barely show until the last 2 mos. We don't know how long she was out of sight of the marshall before he caught her in Australia, so it's possible if she really had been preggers & showing & he had just found out, he might not have gotten around to mentioning it to anyone. I'm sure when they were first found they were combed over by drs.

And the problem of feeding Aaron wasn't answered. I'm pretty sure I remember Claire using a Dharma bottle in one scene, but I thought she'd filled it herself. Not easy, but possible. Once Claire disappeared, how did Sawyer/Kate/Sun feed him all day? And presumably for the next several days? How did Kate explaining nursing for 5 wks & then suddenly drying up & needing bottles? If they actually had been on a raft for 3 days, she could have gotten dehydrated & lost her milk supply, but then the baby would've died.

Yes, there are large babies, and yes, there are babies who are fairly bald for 2 yrs. Not worried about that. But a 5 wks old who follows things with his eyes, plays with his hands, smiles frequently, holds his head up so steadily....nah. The actual baby actor is probably closer to 5 mos than 3, but the storyline isn't working for me. I did know that Kate was going to pass him off as her own. Only way to avoid custody battles.

Did anyone else notice the scene where Sun was holding "Aaron" all wrapped up? Whatever was wrapped in that blanket was about half Aaron's size.

Anthuriums are those red heart-shaped flowers with the large yellow thing sticking out. (My mom calls them penis flowers.) They're very popular on Valentine's Day. They grow in Hawaii. Very expensive on the East Coast.

I'm also bored with watching Ben get hit. As well as watching the Losties point guns at people only to be outnumbered and forced to disarm.

The thing about the freighter blowing up though - if everyone's dead, there's no reason for O6 to return to the island. So at least some of them must be alive.

Hurling:

Just like in the courtroom!

Hurling: "Ms.Undaunted, that is what you are going by now isn't it? Look at this," thrusting the evidence towards the witness, "Does this refresh your memory?"

Undaunted aka Grandjubjub,aka Oma,aka Gramma, aka that F**king bitch, aka Intrepid aka dauntless:
"Oh! Well, I . . ."

Hurling: "Well, dauntless, does this refresh your memory?"

Undaunted: "Yes. Yes, I do recall now that I was dauntless, but I swear it was only for a nanosecond and I never inhaled!"

So Hurling, I am compelled by the rules of my family to make this statement to you:
You were right and I was wrong.

never let the facts get in the way of a good story ......


when approaching a challenge armed with facts and feelings, always trust your heart .....

Back to LOST........

About Jin: I'm beginning to think that Jin is really dead. There has to be a reason for the contrived addition of two people who survived the crash just to have them die later of their injuries. Why would they invent those two people?

To explain their bodies being transported back to the real world. Jin is one of those 2 bodies; I don't know who the other one is yet.

That explains the cargo crew person we can barely see sitting away from the survivors. It also explains why the cargo door was used, rather than the passenger door, for the survivor's exit from the plane. The cargo door opened because there was cargo: Two coffins.

I think Sun gained controlling interest in her father's company not to have the resources to find her husband, but because she is pissed off that her husband is DEAD, because she knows that makes her father happy, because it was her father's actions that put Sun & Jin on that plane. Sun's intent is to permanently wipe that smug look off her father's face.

As a Sicilian American, I can deeply appreciate that. I once flashed a "V" to a friend who was in the middle of a losing battle. He said, "Yes! Victory!" I said, "No. Vendetta."

Best served cold. I have since outgrown that.
_______

Poor Claire's mom walks outside the funeral service where she will be promptly hit by a car.

Your work is done Claire's mom. Thank you for serving.
_____

I believe that Sawyer gets off the island. But I don't think he gets off with the survivors. He will arrive later. He has to because I think it is he and Kate who are supposed to be Aaron's guardians.

LOST is about a war for control of that island. It's been going on for a very long time with periods here and there of peace. Our Lostees literally fell in, setting off an invasion and new battle. Now, whether they like it or not, they are drafted into the fight. It is all about securing that island so Aaron can be returned to it safely so he can act as Jacob's spokesman.

There will be no peace for any of the survivors until they acquiesce to their new roles. That doesn't mean they have to return to the island right now. It means they have to make peace with the fact that they will be called back. They can't rush to go back; it won't work. They can't escape it, that won't work. They just have to live their lives and be prepared to go when they are called. And when they are called, the path back will be opened to them.

Don't push the river, it flows by itself.
__________

Or not.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: undaunted,

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:
Hurling:

Just like in the courtroom!

Hurling: "Ms.Undaunted, that is what you are going by now isn't it? Look at this," thrusting the evidence towards the witness, "Does this refresh your memory?"

Undaunted aka Grandjubjub,aka Oma,aka Gramma, aka that F**king bitch, aka Intrepid aka dauntless:
"Oh! Well, I . . ."

Hurling: "Well, dauntless, does this refresh your memory?"

Undaunted: "Yes. Yes, I do recall now that I was dauntless, but I swear it was only for a nanosecond and I never inhaled!"

So Hurling, I am compelled by the rules of my family to make this statement to you:
You were right and I was wrong.

Anyway, I forgot I awarded you an extra point for having several very cool & plausible theories recently, none of which involved a spinal implant.

Well now....This is interesting.

DarkUFO Screen cap

A link to a screencap of LOST's opening scene of the series of Jack waking up in the jungle. And right there next to him on the ground, to our right is a small cylindrical black object that looks for all the world like Ben's whoop-ass baton.

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:
Back to LOST........

About Jin: I'm beginning to think that Jin is really dead. There has to be a reason for the contrived addition of two people who survived the crash just to have them die later of their injuries. Why would they invent those two people?

To explain their bodies being transported back to the real world. Jin is one of those 2 bodies; I don't know who the other one is yet.

Sun states in the press conference that Jin died in the crash.

quote:

Originally posted by .robb.:

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:
Back to LOST........

About Jin: I'm beginning to think that Jin is really dead. There has to be a reason for the contrived addition of two people who survived the crash just to have them die later of their injuries. Why would they invent those two people?

To explain their bodies being transported back to the real world. Jin is one of those 2 bodies; I don't know who the other one is yet.

Sun states in the press conference that Jin died in the crash.

Well, yes that is true. But of course everything she is saying in that press conference is a lie. However, I will concede that if Jin's body was being brought back that it would make sense for her to have said, "yes, my husband survived the crash but died soon after." Unless there was a reason she didn't say that.

In any case...I say there are two coffins on that plane and I want to know who (or maybe even what) is in them.

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:

quote:

Originally posted by .robb.:

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:
Back to LOST........

About Jin: I'm beginning to think that Jin is really dead. There has to be a reason for the contrived addition of two people who survived the crash just to have them die later of their injuries. Why would they invent those two people?

To explain their bodies being transported back to the real world. Jin is one of those 2 bodies; I don't know who the other one is yet.

Sun states in the press conference that Jin died in the crash.

Well, yes that is true. But of course everything she is saying in that press conference is a lie. However, I will concede that if Jin's body was being brought back that it would make sense for her to have said, "yes, my husband survived the crash but died soon after." Unless there was a reason she didn't say that.

In any case...I say there are two coffins on that plane and I want to know who (or maybe even what) is in them.

They were on the island for 3 mos - if they'd buried the bodies (which they've certainly done quite a bit of) they'd be pretty decayed. And wasn't the story that they found the raft and took it to another island? They wouldn't have been carting decayed corpses with them on the off chance they'd find rescue & a ride back to the US.

quote:

A link to a screencap of LOST's opening scene of the series of Jack waking up in the jungle. And right there next to him on the ground, to our right is a small cylindrical black object that looks for all the world like Ben's whoop-ass baton.

It "could" be a baton. The length is right, and the matte black finish makes me think standard federal issue. We would need to see a screen cap of Ben using the baton in order to eyeball any size differential.

"If" this is Ben's baton...the ramifications of how far ahead they planned is stunning.

quote:

Originally posted by CaptNemo:

quote:

A link to a screencap of LOST's opening scene of the series of Jack waking up in the jungle. And right there next to him on the ground, to our right is a small cylindrical black object that looks for all the world like Ben's whoop-ass baton.

It "could" be a baton. The length is right, and the matte black finish makes me think standard federal issue. We would need to see a screen cap of Ben using the baton in order to eyeball any size differential.

"If" this is Ben's baton...the ramifications of how far ahead they planned is stunning.

Like so many other things on Lost, that silly stinger baton keeps popping up. It saved him when he "landed" in the desert. The point was clearly made when he gave it to John before walking up to Keamy. Why? Had Ben not handed the baton to John would any of us thought about it at all?

quote:

Originally posted by hurling:
They were on the island for 3 mos - if they'd buried the bodies (which they've certainly done quite a bit of) they'd be pretty decayed. And wasn't the story that they found the raft and took it to another island? They wouldn't have been carting decayed corpses with them on the off chance they'd find rescue & a ride back to the US.

I don't mean to suggest that their story has them disinterring the bodies and hauling them from one island to the other!

I'm saying they invented two people who survived the crash but died after the crash and the simplest reason for that lie is: It isn't a lie. Two more people got off Mystery Island either dead or near dead and the O-6 told Oceanic, "You arrange for the return of their remains to their families or we won't go along with your ridiculous story of crashing in the Indian freaking Ocean..

In fact, that is the only thing about their rescue that is actually true, "Eight of us escaped but two of us succumbed to injuries after the escape."

That statement was way more true that it ought to have been because, of course, in the pretend scenario...Aaron hadn't been born yet so they were 7 survivors struggling to get ashore, not 8. Although I have to say I would totally buy an explanation by the O-6 that they did not misspeak; because they had lost so many and Aaron was alive and well in his mother's womb and you're damned right we counted him! We had to count him! He gave us hope. He proved to us that miracles DO happen! Damned right we counted him from the beginning. Eight human lives made it off that plane; you look at this child and tell me that is not so."

If that isn't the explanation for the lie about 2 extra dead, then I will be interested to hear what it turns out to be. Because inventing and then leaving 2 dead people rotting on a deserted Indonesian island is going to enrage the families of the dead.
______________

How long Kate was out of sight of the authorities before the crash ... We know it is a minimum of 3 months because that is how long she spent on the Australian's farm before the US Marshall came to fetch her.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: undaunted,

Random question: Why is it so important that Kate be the one to be Aaron's mother that the O6 cover-up includes some extremely shaky lies? And wouldn't it be pretty easy to disprove Kate's biological motherhood through a DNA test?

quote:

Originally posted by Alaïs_Longthought:
Random question: Why is it so important that Kate be the one to be Aaron's mother that the O6 cover-up includes some extremely shaky lies? And wouldn't it be pretty easy to disprove Kate's biological motherhood through a DNA test?

I don't know why everyone decided Kate should raise Aaron. That is a puzzlement for sure.

But the DNA thing? Someone would have to have a reason to question Kate's maternity and really... there is no reason to question it. Clearly someone gave birth to Aaron after the crash, why would it occur to anyone that it wouldn't be Kate?

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:

quote:

Originally posted by Alaïs_Longthought:
Random question: Why is it so important that Kate be the one to be Aaron's mother that the O6 cover-up includes some extremely shaky lies? And wouldn't it be pretty easy to disprove Kate's biological motherhood through a DNA test?

I don't know why everyone decided Kate should raise Aaron. That is a puzzlement for sure.

But the DNA thing? Someone would have to have a reason to question Kate's maternity and really... there is no reason to question it. Clearly someone gave birth to Aaron after the crash, why would it occur to anyone that it wouldn't be Kate?

Dauntless, I agree that there is no reason for anyone to check Aaron's DNA against Kate. Except for the Maury show, DNA tests are still not all that common.

Why was Kate chosen to raise Aaron? I think because nobody else could fit. Sun? Aaron is clearly not racically correct. The same with Sayid. And none of the men were on the airline with a significant other who could explain a random baby. Only Kate's timeline and history could fit with a baby.

In reading through the posts that have gone through in the last 12 hours, can somebody explain why we are proposing dead bodies walking all over the place? Or have we gotten beyond that and I missed it? In fact, do we even know FOR SURE that even Claire is dead? Really certain?

Continuing on the question of eight survivors with only six rescued, why wouldn't someone from the airline, after the rescue, ask the simple question of who the other two were? Wouldn't that be among the first questions so they could notify the next of kin and plan to recover the bodies?

And even though it has been mentioned, how have the airline officials and news agencies neglected to ask how the plane was found nowhere near where the O6 were found? And didn't the newscast of the discovery of the plane specifically state that ALL of the bodies were on board? It seems the writers have decided to gloss over some glaring inconsistancies.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: pagecarl,

quote:

Originally posted by pagecarl:
Dauntless, I agree that there is no reason for anyone to check Aaron's DNA against Kate. Except for the Maury show, DNA tests are still not all that common.

Why was Kate chosen to raise Aaron? I think because nobody else could fit. Sun? Aaron is clearly not racically correct. The same with Sayid. And none of the men were on the airline with a significant other who could explain a random baby. Only Kate's timeline and history could fit with a baby.

In reading through the posts that have gone through in the last 12 hours, can somebody explain why we are proposing dead bodies walking all over the place? Or have we gotten beyond that and I missed it? In fact, do we even know FOR SURE that even Claire is dead? Really certain?

Continuing on the question of eight survivors with only six rescued, why wouldn't someone from the airline, after the rescue, ask the simple question of who the other two were? Wouldn't that be among the first questions so they could notify the next of kin and plan to recover the bodies?

And even though it has been mentioned, how have the airline officials and news agencies neglected to ask how the plane was found nowhere near where the O6 were found? And didn't the newscast of the discovery of the plane specifically state that ALL of the bodies were on board? It seems the writers have decided to gloss over some glaring inconsistancies.

Yes, that is why they chose Kate out of the survivors to raise Aaron. But why do they decide not to surrender him to Australia's authorities to be raised by his next of kin? Did someone on the island say something to them about it? Did Claire tell Kate at some point that if something happened to her she wanted Kate to raise Aaron?
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We have a lot of hints that Claire is dead but we cannot factually confirm or deny her death.
To the best of my knowledge Claire is the only possibly dead person we are discussing that has wandered around some.

The other two dead that I brought up are dead and not wandering. We just don't know if they are real or not. Are the two dead people the survivors mention pretend or real? I think they are real. I think during the chaos of the last minutes on the island, two people were wounded, evacuated from the island and ended up dying. And the O-6 insisted that Oceanic Airlines squeeze the newlydeads into their fabricated story so their families could receive the bodies.
--------------
About the survivors cover story:

I think (I hope) the writers know what they're doing with the rescue stuff. I think Oceanic or Widmore or whoever planted that wreckage, either didn't know there were survivors when they planted it. Or they were very confident any survivors would not be dropping in.

But then . . . Gobsmacked! Six people from Flight 815 show up alive and well and Oceanic Airlines has a new situation and potential crisis on its hands. So they fabricate a story and force fit it to their previous story. That's why it doesn't quite fit. It's not the LOST writers; It's Oceanic's fault.

I think Oceanic knows who the other two people are that died recently of their injuries. I think they already have the coffins on the C-130; and if they aren't on the C-130, then Oceanic is going to get them.

I have no idea what's up with the reporters! Why didn't any of them ask my burning question: "Did it seem odd to anyone on the plane that the first several hours of your flight to Los Angeles you were flying westward over the continent of Australia?"

For me, this is currently the most baffling thing about LOST: Why did the stagers of that plane wreckage decide to plant it off the coast of Bali instead of off the coast of some remote Pacific island? I do NOT understand it; it defies logic.

It is so baffling that I am actually considering the sci-fi option of there being two flight 815s.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: undaunted,

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:
Yes, that is why they chose Kate out of the survivors to raise Aaron. But why do they decide not to surrender him to Australia's authorities to be raised by his next of kin? Did someone on the island say something to them about it? Did Claire tell Kate at some point that if something happened to her she wanted Kate to raise Aaron?

Yes, exactly; I should have been more specific.

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:
Why didn't any of them ask my burning question: "Did it seem odd to anyone on the plane that the first several hours of your flight to Los Angeles you were flying eastward over the continent of Australia?"

For me, this is currently the most baffling thing about LOST: Why did the stagers of that plane wreckage decide to plant it off the coast of Bali instead of off the coast of some remote Pacific island? I do NOT understand it; it defies logic.

It is so baffling that I am actually considering the sci-fi option of there being two flight 815s.

My inner geography major has been bothered by this since Flight 815 was "found." At this point I've given up wondering about it because I can't think of any reason that makes sense & am waiting to see how TPTB explain it. Hopefully the reason will prove to be logical & consistent, at least w/i the world of LOST.

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:

Why didn't any of them ask my burning question: "Did it seem odd to anyone on the plane that the first several hours of your flight to Los Angeles you were flying eastward over the continent of Australia?"

For me, this is currently the most baffling thing about LOST: Why did the stagers of that plane wreckage decide to plant it off the coast of Bali instead of off the coast of some remote Pacific island? I do NOT understand it; it defies logic.

It is so baffling that I am actually considering the sci-fi option of there being two flight 815s.

So now you all have me confused. The island where the Losties washed up on is north-west of Sydney. If 815 was flying on a proper east by east-north-east toward LA and lost all navigation in a storm, why is it beyond understanding that it ended up heading toward Indonesia? There are a million little islands there so that fits. There is unending geotechnic activity there so some odd island characteristics fit.

Dauntless, you can't fly east out of Sydney without hitting ocean really quickly. I'm not sure what you meant by flying east over the continent.

I also need to search back over old posts. When I looked Sumba Island up on Goggle Earth it reminded me that it was the closest to a fit from one of the maps that surfaced in season 1 or 2. I remember looking at it way back then.

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:
Well now....This is interesting.

DarkUFO Screen cap

A link to a screencap of LOST's opening scene of the series of Jack waking up in the jungle. And right there next to him on the ground, to our right is a small cylindrical black object that looks for all the world like Ben's whoop-ass baton.

Ben has the baton when he wakes up in the desert, he also gives it to Locke when they are preparing to move the island... He was hiding it behind his back when he went to see Charles Widmore, perhaps as a "just in case" - I think it must be linked to the time issue.

The comment above the screencap of Jack is interesting - perhaps Jack has come BACK to the island via the baton thingy.

So what we are seeing is his second trip, to put things right?

Oh, no, this is doing my head in....

And - I think Jin, Des and Michael are going to get blown up on the freighter - or at least, Jin - which is where he actually dies.

The other person responsible for his death, according to Sun, would be Widmore.

I said this in an old post about Jack possibly trying to set things right this time around which is why he and Kate always seem to be communicating through their eyes to one another.i don't know how to explain kate getting back though unless she woke up already and ran to the crash site.There are too many things that disprove what I'm saying though. I also think Vincent holds some key.

When we first saw her Kate was just wandering around looking dazed...as did Jack when he came round in the jungle.

Thinking about it, perhaps they are having the kind of unpredictable flashes Desmond was having on the freighter, between two time situations.

Vincent is definitely key somehow IMO. And I don't think he is "Vincent" anymore...

PageCarl: I like the new photo!

Oops...I apologize. I said "eastward" over Australia. I meant "westward"; I corrected it.

So to clarify: The wreckage was found SE off the coast of Bali. And that is NW of Sydney. The survivors were found NE of, but well in the vicinity of the wreck site. DarkUfo has some good screen caps from the press conference showing maps of the vicinity.

I went to Great Circle Mapper website and entered syd-dps (Sydney to Bali, because I couldn't find Sumba Island at Great Circle mapper) and it gives us this: Initial heading: 298(NW). Bali is 2871 miles from Sydney. It shows a flight path NW from Sydney directly over the continent of Australia.

Of course it isn't beyond understanding how a plane might have got turned around in a storm and lost all navigation tools. What is beyond my understanding is why nobody asked about the extraordinary event that would have caused them to be so incredibly far off course.
_____________

Howdy Yin Yang! I was wondering where you had gone to. Hoping all is well in Tuscany for you and yours.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: undaunted,

Re the issue of why the O6 weren't asked about being found in the Indian Ocean rather than the Pacific:

After thinking about it for a while, it seems to me that Oceanic's officials would have been the logical people to ask about why 815 was found where it was, rather than the people on 815. Generally, a transoceanic flight would be at 30,000 feet (roughly), & if there's any cloud cover, a person on the plane isn't going to see any ground landmarks, only the tops of the clouds. Secondly, w/a large plane like 815, fewer than half of the passengers are going to have a window seat to be looking out to see anything anyway. Finally, although perhaps I'm undercrediting people's sense of geography, I doubt that most people would pay attention to the placement of the sun or even what's visible on the ground (assuming no cloud cover). I think most people assume that the pilot knows what s/he's doing & pay no attention to the apparent direction of the plane. On a long flight like that, there are movies to watch, naps to take, meals to eat, drinks to drink, etc., especially as Oceanic isn't a US carrier (apologies to anyone who works for a US airline).

So although the geography question is a burning one that is begging to be answered (or ought to be, & I'm still waiting for TPTB to address it), the O6 aren't the right batch to ask about it.

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:
PageCarl: I like the new photo!

Howdy Yin Yang! I was wondering where you had gone to. Hoping all is well in Tuscany for you and yours.

Hi there Undaunted and all you folks!
I have been checkingin regularly to see what everyone is saying - I just kind of lost steam over that dang hiatus due to the strike and have been really busy producing plays, teaching, translating and generally doing the things a human female has to do!

For the record, I've really enjoyed season 4, every episode seems stimulating and it really feels like it's heading somewhere now.

And Pagecarl, same goes! Nice pic!

quote:

Originally posted by Alaïs_Longthought:
Re the issue of why the O6 weren't asked about being found in the Indian Ocean rather than the Pacific:

After thinking about it for a while, it seems to me that Oceanic's officials would have been the logical people to ask about why 815 was found where it was, rather than the people on 815. Generally, a transoceanic flight would be at 30,000 feet (roughly), & if there's any cloud cover, a person on the plane isn't going to see any ground landmarks, only the tops of the clouds. Secondly, w/a large plane like 815, fewer than half of the passengers are going to have a window seat to be looking out to see anything anyway. Finally, although perhaps I'm undercrediting people's sense of geography, I doubt that most people would pay attention to the placement of the sun or even what's visible on the ground (assuming no cloud cover). I think most people assume that the pilot knows what s/he's doing & pay no attention to the apparent direction of the plane. On a long flight like that, there are movies to watch, naps to take, meals to eat, drinks to drink, etc., especially as Oceanic isn't a US carrier (apologies to anyone who works for a US airline).

So although the geography question is a burning one that is begging to be answered (or ought to be, & I'm still waiting for TPTB to address it), the O6 aren't the right batch to ask about it.

Thank you Alais! That makes sense.

quote:

Originally posted by Alaïs_Longthought:
Re the issue of why the O6 weren't asked about being found in the Indian Ocean rather than the Pacific:

After thinking about it for a while, it seems to me that Oceanic's officials would have been the logical people to ask about why 815 was found where it was, rather than the people on 815. Generally, a transoceanic flight would be at 30,000 feet (roughly), & if there's any cloud cover, a person on the plane isn't going to see any ground landmarks, only the tops of the clouds. Secondly, w/a large plane like 815, fewer than half of the passengers are going to have a window seat to be looking out to see anything anyway. Finally, although perhaps I'm undercrediting people's sense of geography, I doubt that most people would pay attention to the placement of the sun or even what's visible on the ground (assuming no cloud cover). I think most people assume that the pilot knows what s/he's doing & pay no attention to the apparent direction of the plane. On a long flight like that, there are movies to watch, naps to take, meals to eat, drinks to drink, etc., especially as Oceanic isn't a US carrier (apologies to anyone who works for a US airline).

So although the geography question is a burning one that is begging to be answered (or ought to be, & I'm still waiting for TPTB to address it), the O6 aren't the right batch to ask about it.

Alais, I completely agree that the Oceanic staff would have been the ones to ask. I, for one, make a habit out of tracking topography while flying. That said, when I flew to Palau I knew one thing and one thing only for certain - I was over the ocean. Even during the approach for the fueling and stopover in Hawaii, the pilot announced our approach long before the island came into view. So that said, no way would the passengers know where they were.

On the other hand, looking at Sumba Island in Goggle Earth, flying east to west, they would have passed right over Timor before the Savu Sea. Timor is large enough that it would have been noticed, if not identified. Remember that in the middle of a major storm, people would have been looking out the windows.

On the other other hand, given the dynamics of lost, who is to say that is anywhere near where the Lost island actually is? Given that the boat shown ashore when the Losties are rescued is not the same inflatible that Sayid was piloting, the O6 could have been transported anywhere and let off to be rescued. Really, that is how they do it on Survivor. Haul the outrigger to within 1/8-mile from there the people are heading and get a dramatic shot of them paddling in.


However, any of those reporters could have posed a question to the Oceanic staff. After the major news reports about the "discovery" of the plane, it seems that would have been on the tip of everyone's tongue. Maybe that just isn't the direction TPTB want us to go.

And it is nice to have you back, Yin!

With regard to the real crash: The pilot told us he was 6 hours out when he lost radio contact, at which time he turned back and headed towards Fiji.

I always picture LOST Island south of Fiji, but I guess it's north of Fiji because although the radio was out on the plane, there was (as far as we know) nothing wrong with his navigation instruments so it is unlikely he would have missed Fiji.

Anyway . . . I know nothing about airlines protocol, but wouldn't there be a record of his last radio contact?

Of course if someone has the resources to sink a jetliner in the Tunda Trench with a bunch of purchased corpses strapped into their seats I suppose they could doctor radio transmission records.

I suppose OA could be saying it appears they were hijacked. That makes as much sense as anything and it would explain how a pilot & navigator could be off course by close to 5000 miles when they crashed.

Re where the heck did Flight 815 really crash, where is the island, etc.?

It appears that we've got two theories at the moment:

1) Flight 815 left Sydney for LA on a normal flight path (slightly north of NE). Six hours into the flight, the radio went out & the flight turned back to head for Fiji. At some point after that (I don't recall if anyone said how long), 815 crashed, 1,000 miles off course. This information primarily comes from the pilot (in both senses; the human one & the Pilot Pt. 2 episode), when Jack, Kate, & Charlie found the injured pilot in the cockpit before he became island food.

This would indicate that the crash & therefore the island are somewhere in the South Pacific. Possible supporting evidence for this would be the Numbers, as when translated into GPS coordinates (if I'm remembering correctly, but I also think it works w/latitude & longitude) place the island in the South Pacific. Placement of the island in the South Pacific is also logical according to the expected flight path Sydney-LA. Finally, the pilot has no apparent reason to lie to Jack et al. about what happened to Flight 815.

2) Flight 815 left Sydney for LA, but for an unknown reason flew northwest across Australia & crashed south of Indonesia (on the conveniently uninhabited island of Membata?—which, according to Webster's online dictionary, means "ambivalent" in Indonesian). Supporting evidence for this is that the flight crashed during the day, not in the evening as would have been the case if Flight 815 flew east after departing in mid-afternoon from Sydney. (There's a screen capture in Lostpedia's "Pilot Pt. 1 & 2" episode description or transcript of Jack looking out the window of the plane. It's bright daylight & the plane is above a solid bank of clouds.)

I have a very hard time believing in Theory 2. First of all, it flies in the face of geography (a Sydney-LA flight wouldn't go northwest from Sydney, unless one was really taking the scenic route). Second, for Theory 2 to be true, the pilot(s) & crew would all have to been part of a conspiracy, or one of them would have noticed that the sun was in the wrong place/the plane was flying over land (assuming a break in the clouds), even if no passengers did. This conspiracy would then extend to the pilot's lying to Jack et al.

On the basis of the above evidence, I think that the Membata site is faked & that Flight 815 was never near Indonesia. The weight of logical evidence supports Theory 1. The one logical sticking point in favor of Theory 2, though, is that the crash took place in daylight hours.

However, this still begs the question that undaunted & others have raised: surely someone would have asked why a Sydney-LA flight crashed off of Indonesia. We know there's a massive cover-up going on (although I don't think at this point we know definitely who's behind it, Ben or Charles, or to what extent Oceanic is involved in the cover-up). But why, if someone's trying to cover up what really happened to Flight 815 & the existence of the island, would the cover-up story be so flimsy? Wouldn't the cover-up wreckage & story be placed in the South Pacific where the flight should have been? The South Pacific's big enough that Faux 815 could have been placed somewhere near enough the correct flight path to not arouse suspicion but far enough away from the island to conceal its existence. The cover-up story is as poorly constructed, logically speaking, as the contention that Kate was six months' pregnant on the flight & that Aaron is only five weeks old at the time of rescue.

Random thought: There's been plenty of discussion over what "moving the island" means & it seems that the consensus is that the island moves in time rather than place. (The idea of the island moving in place, rather like Whack-a-Mole, is pretty hard to take.) But if the island can move in place, then was it in the South Pacific when the flight crashed, but moved to the Indian Ocean during one of the "purple sky" events?

Okay, Alais, my contribution to your ideas above, which I didn't copy for brevity's sake;

So leaving Sydney and flying for about six hours at a typical cruising speed gives the plane about 3,400 miles. If they were heading toward LA, they would have passed north of Fiji over the top of Tuvalu, right to a point of being over Baker Island.

Now if they had their emergency there, it is 1,400 miles, say three hours, almost due south to Fiji.

On the other hand, it is about 4,650 miles west by south-west to Sumba Island. That is about nine hours.

The point being, if they actually started toward Hawaii, the stop-over heading to LA, and flew for six hours on a proper course, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY they got off track and flew ANOTHER nine hours and crashed anywhere near Sumba Island.

That is 15 hours of flying. You would think a passenger might notice that they had flown a third longer after the emergency than the entire flight before. As you noted, the timeline would not work given the time of day of the crash based on what Ben and the Others were doing on the island when the crash happened.

So I claim that while I have no clue where the plane crashed and where the island is, the only way to explain it being near the Savu Sea is yet another time shift.

I agree with you Alais.

I suppose there's a possibility that Darlton didn't know when they started out that time travel was fundamental to the story so they might not have paid attention to what time of day they crashed 815. Then as time travel became an issue they realized that 815 crashed at the wrong time of day and all the LOST fanatics are trying to figure it out. So Darlton are trying to figure out how to let us know...."Oops...pretend it was nite time when they crashed."

If TPTB intend for us to know that 815 crashed near Fiji, the sunshine has to be one of the worse production errors of all time. It would have been dark if LOST Island is in the vicinity of Fiji.

It MUST be a production error because the passengers didn't comment on it. And I don't care how unaware we are as travelers, if we've been in the air for around 7 hours since 2pm, we're traveling east, and we see sunshine when we get off the plane...We're going to say, "What the hell???"

If it is going to be revealed that 815 actually crashed off Bali, not Fiji, then I am incredulous because none of the passengers said, "Why is it still daylight?" Remember Sayid mentioned that the time of day was wrong for his short helicopter ride to the freighter.

Moving the island physically doesn't work for the same reason...it was light when they got there, it shouldn't be light.Passengers would have questioned it.

Moving the island in time? Same thing, People would notice.

The writers could have given 815 an early morning departure so it wouldn't fall into this light/dark trap but they didn't.

I'm sounding like the Sicilian in the Princess Bride!

Ergo: In conclusion: Therefore:

1. The Lostee's flight 815 crashed north of Fiji.
2. The sunlight is a production error.
3. The Indonesian crash site is a fake created by big money with a big stake in keeping rescuers and salvagers from nosing around in the vicinity of the real crash site.
4. So....I'm guessing Oceanic Air's explanation for the faux crash site is going to be: Crazy Person/hijacker/terrorist because it's so simple, it isn't required to make sense, and it's close to impossible to disprove.

I've been thinking about the wreckage a lot lately.

The most confounding thing about it is why would someone go to the trouble of staging wreckage in the wrong ocean, 5000 miles in the opposite direction of the flight plan? That would raise more questions than it would answer.

Lapidus, who was originally slated to fly 815 says (when he sees the pilot is not wearing a wedding ring) "That isn't him!" But he doesn't say "Whaddaya mean the Sundra Trench?"

The press never asks any of the survivors, "When did you notice you were flying over Australia instead of the Pacific freaking Ocean?"

So I'm thinking the passengers of Flight 815 were hoodwinked. They were the only people who thought they were boarding a plane to Los Angeles. Everyone else thought that plane was headed to a point northwest of Sidney. The passengers were kidnapped when they got on that plane.

How does the sunshine when the plane fell out of the sky fit? If we work on the premise that the sun shine was not a production error, where would the plane have to be to have sunshine after 6 hours of flight from Sidney?

I suppose if there was a production error it might have been the flight departure time, not the crash in the sunshine.

What about the boarding of the plane in Sidney indicates those passengers were hand picked for that flight? I have to go back and watch it again.

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:
I've been thinking about the wreckage a lot lately.

The most confounding thing about it is why would someone go to the trouble of staging wreckage in the wrong ocean, 5000 miles in the opposite direction of the flight plan? That would raise more questions than it would answer.

Lapidus, who was originally slated to fly 815 says (when he sees the pilot is not wearing a wedding ring) "That isn't him!" But he doesn't say "Whaddaya mean the Sundra Trench?"

The press never asks any of the survivors, "When did you notice you were flying over Australia instead of the Pacific freaking Ocean?"

So I'm thinking the passengers of Flight 815 were hoodwinked. They were the only people who thought they were boarding a plane to Los Angeles. Everyone else thought that plane was headed to a point northwest of Sidney. The passengers were kidnapped when they got on that plane.

How does the sunshine when the plane fell out of the sky fit? If we work on the premise that the sun shine was not a production error, where would the plane have to be to have sunshine after 6 hours of flight from Sidney?

I suppose if there was a production error it might have been the flight departure time, not the crash in the sunshine.

What about the boarding of the plane in Sidney indicates those passengers were hand picked for that flight? I have to go back and watch it again.

Dauntless, interesting thoughts.

Regarding the "sunlight" angle. I personally think that the sunlight, as well as the time of day, was generally made suitable for filming quality and not for us to pick apart. We know about what time of day the plane crashed based on the book club sequence. As I remember, the sun was shining outside when the Losties boarded the plane. If the plane was flying generally east, as if to LA, the plane would be flying toward the sun AND the sun would be moving toward the plane (okay, give me a break -metaphorically - I know it is the earth's rotation)therefor speeding up the apparent location of the sun at the time of the crash, making it appear to be further west of the plane and later in the day. If the plane took off in the morning, when you fly east it gets later quickly. Thus, after six hours it would certainly be past early afternoon.

Now your "kidnapped" question reminds me of past episodes. A good question. We have all lost track of the idea that the Losties, at least the main characters, were chosen to be on the island. We get that from hints in several episodes. Even now it appears that some of them were certainly intended to be there. John is probably the most certain. With all of the time travels and his connection to Alpert, John was certainloy destined to be on the island. Why the other Losties? Why, for instance, Sawyer? Why Kate or Jack? Why would they have been necessary for the island?

I have come to expect that some force is manifesting itself on the island. It is embodied in Jacob, whose physical hand over time is Richard. The Others are Richard's "Army" to keep the island free of contamination until they can achieve their goal. Widmore was part of the "Army" but learned the island's secret and left, determined to own it for himself (making him a bad guy). But Richard is somehow limited so they need a new hand to achieve their goal. It was to be Ben but he is not quite capable. John is the MAN! But why the other Losties? Are they intended to be a supporting cast around Locke?

Okay, that's all I've got. Thanks, Dauntless, for reminding me of that thread.

Oh, and the entire gullibility idea of where the plane was found? Yeah, I'm not buying it, either. It was to flagrent of a foul. Any of the reporters could have pulled out an atlas and said, Hmmmmmm?

PageCarl:

I suspect you are right about the sunlight and filming quality. It was the first show of the series and Darlton had no idea how every little thing would be scrutinized. So...that leaves me with the idea that the our Lostees were either hijacked or kidnapped and I'm definitely leaning towards kidnapped.

The problem with the kidnapping angle is that it requires us to accept 2 things:
__1.That all of the passengers were meant to be taken. All of them thought they were going to LA; they all had tickets to Los Angeles. And if they were kidnapped, that means their tickets were "off the grid". You can't take people who bought legitimate tickets to LA and put them on a plane for someplace else without raising the question, "Whaddaya mean the Sundra Trench?"
__2. No one they knew was aware they were on their way to LA. More specifically, no one would be suspicious if they got on a plane in Sydney to someplace other than LA.

and that's where it breaks down....because Jack's mother was expecting him, wasn't she? On the other hand, didn't getting the casket on the 815 appear to cause a problem.

And Kate and the US marshall. They were expected in LA........

so I dunno. Back to why didn't the entire world say "Whaddaya mean the Sundra Trench?"

sigh