I was thinking, it is now clear Ben and Locke have to move the Island. Some people were thinking that meant in time.

I am not sure this is correct. I think what will happen is Ben/Locke will move the Island literally and some place much colder i.e. the North or South poles. This would explain Ben's need for a big coat when he travelled previously in the season and beat up the arab chaps.

Could it also explain Penny's people finding the blip way back at the end of season 2?

I'm thinking both space and time will come into play. Don't forget that Ben wasn't exactly sure of the date when he checked in to the Tunisian hotel.

I do think you're onto something about one of the polar regions perhaps being the location of some kind of gateway. I've wondered whether Ben's trip to Tunisia was done in two steps, hence the need for the parka.

I think there is definately something in the polar regions too. I am not sure if it is a portal. I think the Island has been moved before, and that is where the polar bears originally came from. I.e. the Island was previously in the North pole.

However if the Island turns into a space ship in the season finally an flies somewhere else. I for one will no longer be watching lost.

I think we are now at the boundaries of believeable fiction. One more leap and is that what you people in the states call "jumping the shark".

So, do you think that Ben turning the Big Wheel in the Ground was jumping the shark? I personally am not sure how I feel about it.

For one thing, the fact that it totally moves discounts the Lay Lines theory that had been brought up after Rose went to the Cancer Whisperer. That guru talked about how certain places have healing properties. However, if they move physical locations then the healing properties would no longer apply.

quote:

Originally posted by SKM325:
For one thing, the fact that it totally moves discounts the Lay Lines theory that had been brought up after Rose went to the Cancer Whisperer.

Unless it moves along a lay line to another intersection.

Disregarding many other shaky aspects of the episode and just concentrating on the island moving, it seems everyone is discounting what actually happened, sequentially.

Ben put the metal objects in the vault and lit it off. The island has not yet moved.

Ben entered the vault and cleared away debris, exposing a hole in the back wall and a tunnel which clearly had been there for some time. The island still had not moved.

Ben climbed through the tunnel and down a ladder. The island has not yet moved.

Ben knocks out a "plate" frozen in the floor. Interesting since there is nothing beneath the "plate" to freeze against. Water freezes on the surface while resting on top of the water. Pools freeze over. But freezing over in mid-air? Regardless, the island still has not moved.

Ben climbs down a second ladder. This one is frozen and leads to a clearly frozen vault room. The island has not yet moved.

Now Ben breaks chunks of ice from the wheel and turns it while hoochie-kootchie lights sparkle inside the wheel's housing. Now the vault moves.

My point here is that somehow Ben went down the elevator, then vertically down about 20 feet max on the ladders, from the island which is in the tropics, and found himself in a frozen vault. BEFORE the island moved. With no apparent crossing timelines or lay lines or whatever, he was in a frozen waste in the center of the island. Hmmmmmmmmmmm ..... Before it moved. Hmmmmmmmm ....

that isn't even considering how the wheel accomplishes anything. Maybe it's just like a slower version of the Wheel of Fortune. Look for Vanna soon.

Good to see you're using the ol' noodle, PC. In fact, it's just good to see you in general.

It's like the frozen hole itself was some "middle ground"... because we know that he's worn that same parka when he pops on the scene in Tunesia... so it seems like time travel is a chilly business. Apparently you have to cut through Antarctica before you get where you're headed.

Which, if that's the best way to time travel, WHY do you have to blow a wall through the back of the vault to get there? Shouldn't there be an Easy Access Panel somewhere?

WHICH, I'm not much of a sailor, but did that wheel feel a little nautical -- like it was the thing you have to wind the anchor up with on a very old ship...

quote:

Originally posted by SKM325:
Good to see you're using the ol' noodle, PC. In fact, it's just good to see you in general.

It's like the frozen hole itself was some "middle ground"... because we know that he's worn that same parka when he pops on the scene in Tunesia... so it seems like time travel is a chilly business. Apparently you have to cut through Antarctica before you get where you're headed.

Which, if that's the best way to time travel, WHY do you have to blow a wall through the back of the vault to get there? Shouldn't there be an Easy Access Panel somewhere?

WHICH, I'm not much of a sailor, but did that wheel feel a little nautical -- like it was the thing you have to wind the anchor up with on a very old ship...

Yes, I agree. The wheel did look like the entire roon was built and reinforced 100 years back or so, Black Rockish. It would seem the Dharma people found what others had been using for some time. That might indicate that the Others, as we know them, were pushed aside by Dharma until they killed all of Dharma and took their toys back.

Did you see the glyphs on the column just after Ben lit the lamp? And the clearly built-up rocks in the wall?

And did you notice the production error? When Ben fell of the ladder the crowbar landed against the wall. When he sat up the crowbar was between his legs. opps

In a March, 2008 podcast - Damon & Carton referred to:

quote:

The end of the season will be referred to "The Frozen Donkey Wheel". Only the minimum number of people that need to know the information of the end of the season. Last season's code name for Jack and Kate on the tarmac was the "Rattlesnake in the Mailbox." The "The Frozen Donkey Wheel" is not the final scene of the final episode, but a key moment in the finale.

People have been trying to figure out what the 'frozen donkey wheel' would be - I got a laugh when it was actually a frozen donkey wheel.

quote:

Originally posted by pagecarl:
And did you notice the production error? When Ben fell of the ladder the crowbar landed against the wall. When he sat up the crowbar was between his legs. opps

I don't want to hear any more about the crowbar between Ben's legs. This is a family board, PC!!

Having just seen the new Indiana Jones movie, I can say w/authority that LOST is a model of real-world consistency & believability in comparison.

quote:

Originally posted by SKM325:

quote:

Originally posted by pagecarl:
And did you notice the production error? When Ben fell of the ladder the crowbar landed against the wall. When he sat up the crowbar was between his legs. opps

I don't want to hear any more about the crowbar between Ben's legs. This is a family board, PC!!

You're a married woman. Out of the gutter, young lady.

quote:

Originally posted by Alaïs_Longthought:
Having just seen the new Indiana Jones movie, I can say w/authority that LOST is a model of real-world consistency & believability in comparison.

Yes, I'm getting flak from people geekier than I (they DO exist) for complaining about some of the more ridiculous scenes. (Practice standing on vehicles moving over rough terrain much, do you? I guess Romulans might, at that.)

What I did wonder about was if the island has been moved before, why was the vault intact for Ben to blow it up? Or was that all built after the last move?

I taped Good Morning America today - they promised to show 2 alternate endings to the finale, which allegedly won't be available anywhere else (until the DVD is released). Will report back later.

quote:

Originally posted by hurling:

What I did wonder about was if the island has been moved before, why was the vault intact for Ben to blow it up? Or was that all built after the last move?

My guess is that if the island had actually been moved, it was by the Others and never by Dharma.

Dharma knew they were building the vault by a power source (per the video) but walled off the cave with the vault? Uh huh.

It seems more likely that the Others are the original islanders or descendants thereof and were the original "keepers" of the knowledge of the island. They knew about the lower vault with the wheel and they knew it could move the island. They told Ben the story.

But how would Ben know that if he moved the island he couldn't go back? If someone had done it and couldn't go back, they would not be there to tell anyone. Further, what back? If he moved the island, didn't he move with it? Or are we to assume that the "cold" room was not in the same place as the island, that it is a "control" room for the island and stays stationary while the island moves? Otherwise, where the island goes, Ben goes.

Any moment I expect Alice to come sliding into the picture chasing a rabbit. Oh. We already have rabbits.

And I want to know about this "donkey wheel" name. You couldn't hook donkeys up to it, so why the name? Silly.

And I think what's her name, the anthropologist chica (who is by death of others becoming my favorite - which means she will also die soon) had an important line about going back to where she was born. If she has to stay on the island to do that, is there an implication that she was born on the island when it was in another location? And that the island has a limited number of locations? And how did what's his name read her thoughts if she isn't dead?

And, since I am rambling, it wasn't just theone island that moved. Jack finally remembered the small island. It moved as well.

Well I guess I called it, not quite a space ship flying off, but a disappearing Island that moves physically.

Personally now I have no idea what is going on. Even though I still love the show and will continue watching I cannot help but feel the following.

a) The flash forwards in my opinion add little to the show, I preferred it with flashbacks and narrative.
b) I get the feeling they are making it up as they go along.
c) We need answers soon to major questions, origins of the Island and Smoke monsters etc...
d) The disappearing Island thing was a bit of a stretch. Ice underground anyone???????

Just generally I think things are just way too complex now and only hardcore fans like us will continue with the show if things do not become a little simpler and satisfying.

I my opinion the worst of the season finales thus far.

quote:

Originally posted by Kris_London:
Well I guess I called it, not quite a space ship flying off, but a disappearing Island that moves physically.

Personally now I have no idea what is going on. Even though I still love the show and will continue watching I cannot help but feel the following.

a) The flash forwards in my opinion add little to the show, I preferred it with flashbacks and narrative.
b) I get the feeling they are making it up as they go along.
c) We need answers soon to major questions, origins of the Island and Smoke monsters etc...
d) The disappearing Island thing was a bit of a stretch. Ice underground anyone???????

Just generally I think things are just way too complex now and only hardcore fans like us will continue with the show if things do not become a little simpler and satisfying.

I my opinion the worst of the season finales thus far.

Kris, it's great to pat yourself on the back, but I am not sure how you equate your "space ship" prediction above with what actually happened on the show. In watching the show it appeared to me that the island essentially disappeared, not that a space ship lifted off. Are you suggesting that a space ship invoked an invisibility shield and flew away?

You said above that if that happened you would no longer watch the show. I'm sorry to lose you. Drop by at some point and let us know what new shows you have shosen to watch.

Kris: It's funny how different people see things so differently!

I have no problem at all with the island "disappearing" because we have known all along that the island is "invisible." One thing is no stranger than the other to me.

I have no problem with the iffy science of it because I know for a FACT that the science of it is iffy ... that is why it is scientific "theory" and not scientific "fact".

When we venture into what can happen in the world of quantum physics, well...things just get curioser and curioser.

So I really don't get the objections so many people are making about it because we knew in advance there was no scientific fact that was going to explain it all. We knew it would be based in theory. It is based on "What if..."

What just eats at my guts and makes me want to scream is the non scientific stuff that doesn't make any sense at all. But even that I will wait to see if there is a plausible explanation waiting for me in the future.

I'm talking about (for instance) Why sink a missing jet liner 4000 miles off course? And Why invent 3 dead people who survived the crash but died afterwards? That is the sort of thing that drives me nuts. In comparison to that sort of thing... Frozen donkey wheel to "move" an island? No problema.

I’d like to offer a somewhat different take on the ‘donkey wheel’. I’m not sure how it all adds up, but I’ll put my thoughts out there.

This is the second time in a relatively short span that we’ve seen Ben access a crude tunnel hidden behind the 20th century refinement of Dharma facilities. The first time was when he released Smokey by doing something we didn’t see, but which he gained access to via the secret cave tunnel behind the closet of the panic room in his ranch house at New Otherton. Now, the theme of a crude tunnel hidden behind a Dharma facility is repeated, this time with the donkey wheel at the other side.

I think they’re trying to tell us something with this theme, and with Ben’s snide remark about Dharma’s ‘silly experiments’. The real power of the island was invented, tapped or defined by people who inhabited the island before the Dharmans, and it seems, before the others. I found it interesting that the crude, human-sized tunnel, access hole and ladder led down to a set of inhumanly outsized proportions, much like the island’s ruins.

People build things according to their utility and their personal scale. Since a tropical island is notably lacking in donkeys and in beasts of burdens in general, it is unlikely that the so-called donkey wheel was intended to be turned by animals or any other help. It was intended to be turned by people of an appropriate size to turn it. Really big people. Possibly really big people with four toes.

Here’s where this is going, IMO. The Dharma Project has now been effectively discarded as an irrelevant set of plot points. It was merely the outer layer of the onion. They were people playing with forces they didn’t understand. But set pieces like we’ve seen these past few episodes suggest that the Others’, despite their superior knowledge of the island, are also people whose only accomplishment is learning to play with an extinct civilization’s abandoned toys. Which suggests that the Others, and everything about them, are the next layer of the onion to be discarded.

Which, in turn, suggests to me that we’re going to meet Jacob next season, and I won’t be at all surprised to discover that he’s a really big dude who is more comfortable doing math in a base eight numbering system.

Deep Cover;

I like your suggestion that Dharma and The Others are playing with someone else's toys.

But I have to disagree with your thought that the original inhabitants of the island were big people because as I remember it (and admittedly that is not necessarily reliable) that donkey wheel was about waist high on Ben. To my thinking, that's a bit low for a maximum strength push even for a person of Ben's height.

But I agree that it was not intended that a harnessed animal would turn it. First because after a few steps, the animal would be prevented from going any further. Second because Ben could turn it and Ben is a helluva guy who can take a beating, but he's no Hercules...at least I don't think he is.

Your onion analogy: Exactly so!

Pagecarl,

Sorry I was not saying I called it in respect that I believe it was a spaceship, I was saying I called it because the Island did move physically. I also note I was not the only one to say it would move physically. Sorry to big myself up, I will act with restraint in future.

I shall continue to watch the show and continue to post messages here from time to time.

My main point really was how many more leaps and psuedo science can we take. I love the show miles more than any other, but my love for it is less than it was before. Now 85% instead of the 99% love I had for it before. I hope that makes sense.

For me the donkey wheel did not even register. For me it was like this season was like....

1. Ben can control the Smoke Monster ....what the?
2. There is a moving Cabin.....?? eh?
3. Christian Shepherd walks around and talks to Jacob?......ok?
4. Clare abandons the baby and looks fine about it.....hmmmm?
5. There is a wall behind Dharma's bunny replicating machine where the is a tunnel.....oh come on now?
6. And the tunnel behind the machine is iced up.....eh?

By the time Ben had got to the Donkey wheel I was past caring.

My attitude now is just let the writers tell the story because as far as I know there is not one theory that any of us have put forward which still holds any water. My personal Smokey as a "God" theory got killed by Ben seemingly controlling it.

Of course I will still read this forum and marvel at new theories, I for one cannot even think of a logical one now to answer what is happening in this show. Like where has the Island gone now????

The following was posted over in "mac's house" earlier today:

quote:

Also, for the rational thinkers on this blog, see this D&C curveball:

"The science needs to be right enough that we create a sense of believability to the storytelling," Cuse says. "But we're always trying to skirt that line between the two possible explanations—the scientific one or a mythical and magical one—and we are purposefully ambiguous about which one might be correct."

"Hopefully it won't feel like it's a copout when the show does answer that question," Lindelof adds, "because we never promised a show that was based entirely and grounded in science."

Um, really? I thought for the last three years all we've heard is that everything that goes on in the show can be explained by science, either current or theoretical/cutting edge. Does anyone remember what has been said in the past?

I am with you Alais on this one. I too thought the common view was everything could be explained by science, it has certaintly tainted my watching of the show. I have struggled this season to come to any rational view of what is going on.

By the way mt status is "member", how do you get upgraded to "wicked awesome member"?