We found out tonight that there is a time difference between "island time" and "real world time" based on the events surrounding the launch of the rocket. This was proved by the 30 minute difference between Daniel's watch on the island, and the clock on the rocket. Therefore, time on the island moves much slower than real world time. This explains why Walt could be bigger now since being off the island, and why Richard has barely aged.
What I'm getting at is that I think the writers are trying to catch the series up to real-time events as they happen now. The pilot episode aired on 9/22/04, the same day that Flight 815 crashed. I think we'll find out in a future episode that when the Oceanic 6 finally get OFF the island, it will be the same calendar day that the episode aires on ABC, just like how the series began with the same calendar day.

One thing that could support this theory is Jack's quetion to Frank about the Red Sox winning the World Series. Since Flight 815 has crashed, the Red Sox have won 2 World Series' in real time, one in 2004, and one in 2007. Could Frank have thought that Jack was referring to the 2007 Red Sox Championship, and not the 2004? Frank's only comment was that his father was from the Bronx. He doesn't comment on the Red Sox beating the Yankees to get to the World Series (which happened in 2004, but not in 2007).

One thing that could dismiss this theory is the actual time difference, and its ratio when calculated. I tried to calculate the difference based on observations from the episode. For example, I assumed that the rocket was in flight for 30 "island time" seconds (I don't know if this is accurate), which we found out is 30 "real-time" minutes. Now that we find this ratio (1/60), and apply it to the losties being on the island for 100 days, the math works out to 16 years and change, which is way off, but this is assuming a 30 second "island time" flight of the rocket.

You're definitely on to something. The "time travel" theory is back with a bang. When the chopper gets to the ship, will they have waited months for Frank to bring it back?

The scene with the rocket was exactly like the scene near the beginning of Back to the Future, when Doc Brown sent Einstein and the DeLorean exactly 1 minute in to the future. When the DeLorean returned, the stop watch around Einstein's neck was exactly one minute behind the one in Doc Brown's hand.

quote:

Originally posted by lostease:
We found out tonight that there is a time difference between "island time" and "real world time" based on the events surrounding the launch of the rocket. This was proved by the 30 minute difference between Daniel's watch on the island, and the clock on the rocket. Therefore, time on the island moves much slower than real world time.

Nope, therefore, no such conclusion is warranted. There is only: therefore what? And a variety of speculations can supply the 'what'.

Just to provide one example of what: If the island is some sort of parallel universe connected to ours by a Lorentzian wormhole, then the time differential of the two clocks is a measure of the spacetime difference between the two ends of the wormhole connecting the universes. Running with that a bit further, Farraday is distressed that the time differential is 'getting worse' and 'that ain't good'. It could be the case that the wormhole link is destabalizing, that each end of the wormhole is 'drifting apart', as it were. Possibly because the hatch and its electromagnetic gizmo was supposed to anchor the wormhole at the island end. [This would account for why the boat people are as interested in Desmond as in Ben.]

In this particular speculation, the time differential is explained by the time/space distance of the wormhole, not by any differential in the running of island time and real world time. The time flows in each universe could be different, or not. Nothing, including the watch experiment, tells us they have to be one way or the other.

Or, to summarize in a simple manner, we still don't have a clue.

What we did learn, or, more acurately, confirm, is that SOMETHING is screwing up the time. How much time? We don't even know that. Were the watches even on the same day? The same year?

Quantum theory is very specific in that there is no reason that time cannot go backwards as well as forwards. In fact, more specifically, it CAN! That is unfortunately very difficult for any layman (me included) to grasp. Everything we see in our lives tells us that time goes one way.

So, to theorize on what exactly is happening on the island with regards to time is at this point difficult. We do know that there is enough of an issue that a scientist was dispatched to experiment.

In fact, we can kind of extrapolate from the various disciplines of the scientists in the "rescue party" what is of interest to the writers for future development.

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Originally posted by Deep Cover:

quote:

Originally posted by lostease:
We found out tonight that there is a time difference between "island time" and "real world time" based on the events surrounding the launch of the rocket. This was proved by the 30 minute difference between Daniel's watch on the island, and the clock on the rocket. Therefore, time on the island moves much slower than real world time.

Nope, therefore, no such conclusion is warranted. There is only: therefore what? And a variety of speculations can supply the 'what'.

Just to provide one example of what: If the island is some sort of parallel universe connected to ours by a Lorentzian wormhole, then the time differential of the two clocks is a measure of the spacetime difference between the two ends of the wormhole connecting the universes. Running with that a bit further, Farraday is distressed that the time differential is 'getting worse' and 'that ain't good'. It could be the case that the wormhole link is destabalizing, that each end of the wormhole is 'drifting apart', as it were. Possibly because the hatch and its electromagnetic gizmo was supposed to anchor the wormhole at the island end. [This would account for why the boat people are as interested in Desmond as in Ben.]

In this particular speculation, the time differential is explained by the time/space distance of the wormhole, not by any differential in the running of island time and real world time. The time flows in each universe could be different, or not. Nothing, including the watch experiment, tells us they have to be one way or the other.

Interesting..... Now I understand why your Avatar is a picture of Albert Einstein!

OK, if there is this 31-minute time difference caused by whatever, how can they have "real-time" radio conversations between the island and the ship? Or am I missing something? (Quite likely, actually.)

If there is a difference between 'real time', and 'island time', then how come desmonds meeting with jack at the stadium - just before he boated to the island - was 3 years earlier, and he has been on the island for just over 3 years?
Desmond and the real world seem to have stayed in sync, havent they? im still trying to get my head round it.

this may be of interest:

http://www.timelooptheory.com/the_timeline.htm

appologies if it has been previously posted. i loved this guy's theories and some things are now making sense!

Hello, I'm new here but thought I woudl add my 2 cents.

Ok how about we use the same time flux theory but add a few variables to it. What if "pressing the button" stabilized time on the island? So the island isn't as far out of sync as the theory suggests.

Alternately, what if the time flux isn't a direct ratio but a decaying one. My maths gonna be way off here but the example should give you an Idea of what I mean.

When 1 minute of real time passes 1 minute and 1 second of island time passes. After an hour you have an extra minute. After 60 days you get an extra day. While my math isn't supposed to be a direct representation of what's happening on the island, I think you can see where I am going with it.

The theory also explains some other things that didn't quite make sense to me earlier in the shows lifespan.

Been looks relatively similar to how he did "all growed up" back in the 70's. Maybe he's really only been alive for like 30 years while like 50 or so passed everywhere else.

Also, to answer the Desmond question, while he only just got here a few years back, maybe the button pressing somehow stabalized time, or brought it back in sync with reality somehow.

Last thought for the day. My memory is kind of crappy, but does the length of time they had to wait before pressing the button somehow help any formulas that could calculate the time difference?

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Originally posted by Fracture:
Hello, I'm new here but thought I woudl add my 2 cents.

Welcome. Interesting ideas.

quote:

Ok how about we use the same time flux theory but add a few variables to it. What if "pressing the button" stabilized time on the island? So the island isn't as far out of sync as the theory suggests.

Good idea, I hadn't thought of that. And when the button is missed, the island starts to slip out of the time stream. So an airplane flying overhead would experience stresses as part of it starts to slip before the other parts, similar to the way a glass will shatter if one end is cooled faster than the other.

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Alternately, what if the time flux isn't a direct ratio but a decaying one. My maths gonna be way off here but the example should give you an Idea of what I mean.

When 1 minute of real time passes 1 minute and 1 second of island time passes. After an hour you have an extra minute. After 60 days you get an extra day. While my math isn't supposed to be a direct representation of what's happening on the island, I think you can see where I am going with it.

Yeah, your math is off, but the idea is plausible. What you described is a linear slippage, and is going the wrong way, but the basic idea deserves consideration. I have to get ready for work, but I'll come back to this later.

I'm at work so I can only add one moment of thought to this.

Okay, you want a connection to the 108 minute button push, here goes.

While I understand the linear time slippage idea, your "slippage" ratio is backwards and does not seem to fit right with the rocket experiment.

In the rocket experiment, the flight of the rocket, in a singular environment and based on the countdown, would be essentially instantaneous. At most, the countdown sequence to the rocket's theoretical arrival was maybe 17 seconds (actually closer to 17.22 seconds if you have an accurate timer). Instead, the rocket arrives after a 31 minute delay.

So, if you want a linear slippage, the factor would be closer to, yes, you got it, 108!

31 min. * 60 sec./min. = 1860 / 17.22 sec. = 108

I'm not necessarily buying that but, you wanted a connection, there you go.


All that said, if the 'copter flight back to the freighter is, say, 30 minutes, using a multiplier of 108 would stretch it out to 54 hours or 2-1/4 days. The problem with that idea, however, is that you have the same slippage/stretch in both directions, both ADDING time, not one adding and one subtracting.

And we still have the different conditions which seem to apply to sound waves, which seem to be in real time (the radio).

Also, how far out does the influence of the island extend? When 815 crashed, it did so in real time, both in sound and light.

Further, is there an exact "barrier " line or does a zone fade to nothing over distance?

I'll have to think about all of this later.

pagecarl...while you are thinking about it remember that the writers are trying to keep things as true to real science as possible...so any electromagnetic hocus-pocus that emanates from the island will undoubtedly follow the 'inverse square law'...ie the effect will diminsh with the square of the distance from the source...double the distance and you get 1/4 the intensity, double again and get 1/16 intensity..it's gonna fall off pretty fast.

...maybe inside the 'island bubble' time moves at a slow pace, but when you're in the 'bubble' you don't notice. Outside the 'bubble' time moves at its usual pace. what you perceive as a day on the island took say 30 days off the island. It's the TRANSITION from real time to slow time that can be destructive, and perhaps the bigger the object is that has to make the transition, like a jetliner, the more susceptible it is to being wrenched apart as it moves across a time continuum.

quote:

Originally posted by bellnier:
...maybe inside the 'island bubble' time moves at a slow pace, but when you're in the 'bubble' you don't notice. Outside the 'bubble' time moves at its usual pace. what you perceive as a day on the island took say 30 days off the island. It's the TRANSITION from real time to slow time that can be destructive, and perhaps the bigger the object is that has to make the transition, like a jetliner, the more susceptible it is to being wrenched apart as it moves across a time continuum.

This "time slowdown" on the island is one of my favorite ideas. It would explain lots BUT does not jive with the stated intent to have scientifically valid explanation.

Things to consider;

We know that new staff on the island were drugged. Was that so they would not notice a time shift?

Ben goes back and forth off the island at will. How does he avoid ill effects?

If we see Walt and he was off the island we should gain some insight.

From when 815 originally crashed, did Kate's mom appear to have aged significantly more than island time?

quote:

Originally posted by Fracture:
Hello, I'm new here but thought I woudl add my 2 cents.

Ok how about we use the same time flux theory but add a few variables to it. What if "pressing the button" stabilized time on the island? So the island isn't as far out of sync as the theory suggests.

Alternately, what if the time flux isn't a direct ratio but a decaying one. My maths gonna be way off here but the example should give you an Idea of what I mean.

When 1 minute of real time passes 1 minute and 1 second of island time passes. After an hour you have an extra minute. After 60 days you get an extra day. While my math isn't supposed to be a direct representation of what's happening on the island, I think you can see where I am going with it.

The theory also explains some other things that didn't quite make sense to me earlier in the shows lifespan.

Been looks relatively similar to how he did "all growed up" back in the 70's. Maybe he's really only been alive for like 30 years while like 50 or so passed everywhere else.

Also, to answer the Desmond question, while he only just got here a few years back, maybe the button pressing somehow stabalized time, or brought it back in sync with reality somehow.

Last thought for the day. My memory is kind of crappy, but does the length of time they had to wait before pressing the button somehow help any formulas that could calculate the time difference?

Welcome Fracture. Excellent post.

I hope the writers are not doing all of the time difference stuff just to explain why Walt is tall. Why does Richard/Jacob look so young, but Alex has aged exactly 16 years? At first, I thought that maybe the "6" had been back awhile for Aaron to look like he's a toddler, but maybe he caught up with the time difference thing because he was off the island.

I'm not sure about the time theories anymore - didn't Kate's mother say 4 years have passed since she last saw her? Which would be when the plane crashed to when Kate is in court. Any thoughts???

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And we still have the different conditions which seem to apply to sound waves

Ok since we are talking relativity it is important to just claify the difference between electromagetic radiation and sound waves. It appears that light travels at the same speed inter/extraisland for the conversations to occur over radio, which is not surprising as that speed is universally constant. However mass does not appear to travel across spacetime at a differnent rate - now i'm not sure about the wormhole idea, though it does sound like it has to do with gravity. What is then bizzare is why the island has special magnetic and healing properties. It seems that if you simply follow, say, north on a compass, you will simply end up circling around. Explaination is here however.... when they tried to escape on the boat, the compass lead them back but if this was beacuase of the magnet in the hatch but this is gone now, the point being that the helicopter with sayid on was told to stay on a constant bearing no matter what just like when walt went in the boat.... but now without the magnet they might not need to do this and so the heli is lost and so explains why they havnt reached the frieghter.
One thing to mention, aaron how grown to 2 in the future, although he is only a couple of months old on the island and surely kate would have been arrested straight away after she was rescued and put into the trial which we saw in eggtown. This should mean 3 things
1. aaron's age is messed up with the time delay
2. kate's trial was delayed for years after she was rescured
or 3. they 6 are not rescued for another year at least and the people we are watching on the island now will not be rescued for a long time. In fact, i'll be damned if they dont get rescued until the 5th series or even till the last episode of the 6th.

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Further, is there an exact "barrier " line or does a zone fade to nothing over distance?

Let's not forget the infamous comic book from season one that showed an island/city with some sort of field around it. There was also a thread about time and the island possibly moving from place to place.

The thread is HERE!

PS. For a good laugh, check out my theory about 2/3s of the way down that thread. It was one of my first posts.

If we take the lost writers at their word that there is going to be real science in their science fiction exercise, then I think we have to take the fact that the sky turned purple, together with a deafening sound, when the hatch blew up as a significant clue.

People science geeking in this thread should be familiar with the Doppler Effect. Among other things of significance, the Doppler Effect provided the first inferential evidence of an expanding universe, when we realized that nearly all celestial objects light spectrums were red-shifted, meaning that from the perspective of earth, all celestial objects were moving away from us.

The opposite of a red-shift is a blue-shift, when objects are moving towards each other at a high enough rate of speed that their light spectrum appears to be shifted towards blue. The most extreme end of the blue shift spectrum is a purple shift.

Thought experiment: What would happen if, for a certain time, even a brief few seconds (from the point of view of those within the event effect anyway), an extreme amount of energy (say, I dunno, electromagnetic energy) were released in a contained region of timespace in such a manner as to accelerate that region of timespace relative to the remainder of the universe’s timespace—perhaps even accelerate it at close to the speed of light?

One thing that would happen is that outside light sources along the direction of travel would appear blue shifted, perhaps even purple shifted if enough acceleration occured. Soundwaves would Doppler along with light waves, creating an intense high frequency compaction of sound that would normally occur along the timespace axis of travel. If you travel sufficiently close to the speed of light, time flows differently for you than it does for those not hyperspeeding. You don’t notice it, as your perception of time is as altered as your time stream, but time slows for you relative to those not traveling near the speed of light. What seems like a brief moment of acceleration to you could be much longer from the perspective of those outside the effect. A few seconds could translate to a time differential of 31 minutes—or 31 years for that matter, depending on how close to the speed of light you got.

Just some thoughts d’jour on how various clues such as the current time discontinuity and the hatch blast effects could be related to real science.

Deep Cover, thanks for the explanation in terms that this layperson can understand!