Mac's temporary replacement, vacc, has posted a quite excellent review of the season finale.

http://www.filmfodder.com/tv/lost/archives/004555.shtml

Did Ben imply that he was also returning to the island? After he told Locke he couldn't ever? I don't see a reason to lie about that, so how will he return?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: hurling,

Keamy's heart monitor/detonator: could Locke have taken it off & put it against his own arm? It's not unusual for a heart to skip a beat or 2; the device would have to allow for it. I don't see how a pulse could be as distinctive as a fingerprint. Does anyone know how these devices work?

quote:

Originally posted by hurling:
Keamy's heart monitor/detonator: could Locke have taken it off & put it against his own arm? It's not unusual for a heart to skip a beat or 2; the device would have to allow for it. I don't see how a pulse could be as distinctive as a fingerprint. Does anyone know how these devices work?

Actually, I think it would be a pulse monitor, not a heart monitor. Most heart monitors have electric probes which measure the electric current of the heart. that is why they were alway being strapped across the chest. Some commercial grade monitors measure the light passing through the "pulses" of blood in the cappilaries. On the other hand, I'm not sure how a low end pulse monitor works. They are fairly common but I don't think they wor the same as a heart rate monitor.

In theory, since the monitor was "reading" the very strong pulse from Keamy's inner arm, a suitable substitute would be needed. You could maybe slip your wrist under the band and have it catch your wrist pulse. Still, the idea was for the boat to blow, so .......


I too think John is not done.

Agree, hurling, vacc did a great job!

Just a couple of quick comments:

I had originally thought that it would be Abbadon in the coffin, using the name Bentham.

When I saw Locke in the coffin, the first thing that came to mind was "It's a Locke in a box." (I assume w/socks.)

So if the O6 have to take Locke w/them to get back to the island, does that mean that a corpse in a coffin is a/the trigger to finding the island?

If it's a requirement to off one's father to become the island leader, was Locke voted off the island because he wasn't actually the one who killed Cooper, & Jacob found out that Locke was deceitful? Or perhaps Richard, who was the one who gave Sawyer's dossier to Locke in the first place, knew that Locke hadn't done the deed himself & played that card to totally discredit Locke in the eyes of the Others & Jacob?

Looks like the DUI curse struck again. RIP, Jin.

Saw this comparison on a review of the finale earlier today—Sawyer as Sydney Carton from A Tale of Two Cities, who sacrificed himself to save the husband of the woman he loves.

Ben sure does look like Data!

quote:

Originally posted by pagecarl:

quote:

Originally posted by hurling:
Keamy's heart monitor/detonator: could Locke have taken it off & put it against his own arm? It's not unusual for a heart to skip a beat or 2; the device would have to allow for it. I don't see how a pulse could be as distinctive as a fingerprint. Does anyone know how these devices work?

Actually, I think it would be a pulse monitor, not a heart monitor. Most heart monitors have electric probes which measure the electric current of the heart. that is why they were alway being strapped across the chest. Some commercial grade monitors measure the light passing through the "pulses" of blood in the cappilaries. On the other hand, I'm not sure how a low end pulse monitor works. They are fairly common but I don't think they wor the same as a heart rate monitor.

In theory, since the monitor was "reading" the very strong pulse from Keamy's inner arm, a suitable substitute would be needed. You could maybe slip your wrist under the band and have it catch your wrist pulse. Still, the idea was for the boat to blow, so .......


I too think John is not done.

That's just it, I thought he could've cut the strap & pressed the monitor against his own upper arm within 2-3 seconds.

If we think Locke will be resurrected, he's got to be preserved. We know from CSI that he'll start decomposing within 24 hrs. If he's refrigerated he'll last longer, but he isn't. In order for him to be lying in the funeral home like that, he's got to be embalmed, which means the island's got to pull a hell of a miracle to get him going again. Maybe he'll just be a ghost like Christian & Charlie.

I wondered about the heart/pulse monitor too. I understand that the freighter had to blow and as I remember that monitor was pretty well strapped to Keamy's torso, but still....you'd think Locke would have at least have made an attempt to remove the monitor and get it on his own arm or wrist.

Sun appears to be the epitome of "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." I loved it when Widmore says to her, "Why would you want to help me?" Oh silly silly man.

Sawyer jumped from the chopper! I love that man.

Alais: Interesting association re: body in a coffin and return to island.

So Ben spins the frozen donkey wheel and his prize is ... banishment! Now I'm wondering who spun the FDW last time? I wonder if it was Widmore and that's what they're quarreling about.

So the OA6 invented not two, but 3 more adults that made it off the plane with them. Why? Was it for the sake of credibility? To make the story more believable? Because that doesn't make sense since the OA6 did in fact survive the crash of OA815; it doesn't have to be credible because it's really truly true. This is like a tiny little sliver in my fingertip...just irritating enough to remind me to scratch at it. And why would you invent 3 dead bodies which would tempt their families to go back and retrieve their remains? Charlie drowned; body gone in the sea. But what Boone, Libby both had in common is the kind of money that would permit family to travel to Membata and fetch the remains home.

And I wonder about Oceanic's part in the cover up. Speaking of incredible things, OA must have been gobsmacked when 6 survivors washed ashore off Bali instead of off Fiji! I suppose the survivors might have contacted OA from Penny's boat, but I prefer picturing their faces when the survivors wash ashore near the site of their fake crash.

Desmond and Penelope! It was a lovely kiss.

I was very happy to see Lapidus survive. I hope he comes into play in the next two seasons. I like him.

Charlotte was looking for where she was born?

The ghost whisperer totally knew the people on that raft were going to die.

Faraday: I figure he let the peole off and then turned around to go back to be with his Charlotte or he did a time-leap to the past before his body was blown to smithereens.

Now that we have some time perspective, seeing Kate tell Jack at the airport, "I have to get back, he'll be wondering where I am." First time we heard it I thought she was referring to an adult male; then we knew Aaron was with her so it was probably Aaron she was referring to...but I don't know, the way she said it, the wording, makes me think she is not talking about Aaron.

If John is dead are we to assume that his work for the island is done? Or has he just been islandspider-bit?

The more I see of him, the better I like Bejamin Linus. I like him about a billion times better than Locke. I could let Ben lead me, but I could never let Locke lead me; I'd be driving him nuts...he'd have to shoot me.

I wonder if some (not all) of The Others, Richard's people, are immortals, in that their work is never done because their work is to protect the island and it's designated protector. As long as there is an island and/or a designated protector, those people will not die.

I read this post next door @ Mac's house. It's writer, Mizzed, makes some intersting observations.
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Clearly, there are two competing forces here, both with some level of supernatural ability to communicate to the Oceanic 6, whether in dreams or as "ghosts".

If you accept the basic premise that destiny/the Island/the correct timeline required the Losties to be on flight 815, that they have a purpose on the island, and that the Oceanic 6 left before fulfilling that purpose, meaning they must return, that means:

1. Locke has been correct the entire time. Each time he has trusted his instincts, even when it required actions like destroying the submarine or killing Naomi, he was working towards the correct path. The one time he lost faith- refusing to let the numbers be pushed on the hatch- appears now to be a mistake if it led to the freighter being able to locate the island.

His belief is so strong, at a future point he will essentially sacrifice himself to get the group back to the island.

2. The visit from the ghostly Charley to Hurley are also "right"- the island does need them, they are supposed to go back, and Jack is not supposed to enjoy his domestic bliss with Kate and raise Aaron, because Aaron is also required to go back to the island.

3. The visit from Claire to Kate is "wrong", and is being generated by the opposing force. In fact, all of her actions appear to be wrong since the mercenary attack at the compound. She is either possessed, or similiar to Yemi, she is dead and her appearance is being used by some other force.

4. Christian (or something using his image) is not speaking for Jacob and is part of the opposing force. It is Christian who led Claire astray, seperating her from her baby (leading to Aaaron being one of the 6), and Christian, claiming to be speaking for Jacob, who told Locke to move the island (making it impossible for the 6 to return).

This is consistent with the one time Locke saw Jacob, when he heard "help me" as though Jacob was a prisoner or under some sort of spell or attack.

It is Christian's appearances to Jack post-rescue that start his descent into drug addiction and helplessness.

Note also that if Ben had originally given Michael a real bomb, the freighter never would have made it to the island, i.e. no escape. Christian releases Michael only after the helicopter safely makes it off the freighter.

4. Ben is not what he seems. For four years, viewers have been led to believe that Ben is working with the Others to protect the island. However it is Ben that gives Michael the boat, allowing Walt to leave the island, and Ben who gives the 6 the helicopter, allowing Aaron to leave the island.

Ben attempts to murder Locke when he finds that John can communicate directly with Jacob. It is Ben who pysically moves the island, making it impossible for the 6 to return- and affecting his own escape to where he can now manipulate events off-island.

In fact, I now suspect we've been brilliantly hoodwinked by some great writing- most of our information on the Others, Widmore, Dharma, the Island, etc- comes from Ben, a classic unreliable narrator. He is the ultimate manipulator, the ultimate deceiver. He has repeatedly lied not only to the survivors, but to his own people. He has shown no humanity and no remorse, and places no value on human life. He claims affection for Alex and Juliet, but treats them as possessions and kills those who would come between him and them.

5. We really know nothing about Widmore. I believe viewers have been led to believe he is evil, but our source has been Ben. It is Ben that tells everyone that the mercenaries will kill everyone and destroy the island, but in their actions, their only target is Ben- others are killed by Keamy as emotional blackmail to get Ben to surrender, which he does not do until his plans are in place.

We have also not be shown any scenes between Keamy and Widmore, Gault and Widmore, or Naomi and Widmore to verify his intentions towards the island. Is it possible that Widmore didn't even send the freighter, or stage the fake crash? Gault and Keamy could have met with anyone claiming to be Widmore, while Naomi met with Abaddon, so everyone must be considered an unreliable source until we learn otherwise.

→ 41. Posted by: Mizzed at May 30, 2008 6:42 PM
_____________________________

It has also occurred to me (as it did to Mizzed) that the only reason I'm inclined to think Widmore is on the bad guys side and Ben is on the good guys side is because Ben says so.

One of the interesting aspects of the finale to me was the apparent passing of the baton of leadership. Leadership, of course, has been a recurring and dominant theme on this show, which Hurley reminded us of with his “leader stuff” line.

Well, look at the leaders now. One’s dead and the other is a self-absorbed, self-pitying, self-medicated mess. Where does that leave the leadership rivalry?

Both Jack and Sayid have now ceded whatever leadership authority they might have held before to Ben. Kate has retreated to a middle class mommy fantasy and Hurley has retreated to the psych ward. Sun has, now isn’t this interesting, spent her spare time post-rescue taking over her dad’s financial empire and arranging meet-and-greets with Ben’s sworn enemy, citing ‘common cause’.

When Ben shows up to tell Sun she’s got to go back to the island with him and the rest of the O6 (plus Walt, presumably, not to mention Locke’s mortal coil), that’s going to make for a very interesting conversation. Sun isn’t playing, now. She’s going to make O-Ren Ishii look like a pussycat before this is over.

quote:

Originally posted by Deep Cover:
One of the interesting aspects of the finale to me was the apparent passing of the baton of leadership. Leadership, of course, has been a recurring and dominant theme on this show, which Hurley reminded us of with his “leader stuff” line.

Well, look at the leaders now. One’s dead and the other is a self-absorbed, self-pitying, self-medicated mess. Where does that leave the leadership rivalry?

Both Jack and Sayid have now ceded whatever leadership authority they might have held before to Ben. Kate has retreated to a middle class mommy fantasy and Hurley has retreated to the psych ward. Sun has, now isn’t this interesting, spent her spare time post-rescue taking over her dad’s financial empire and arranging meet-and-greets with Ben’s sworn enemy, citing ‘common cause’.

When Ben shows up to tell Sun she’s got to go back to the island with him and the rest of the O6 (plus Walt, presumably, not to mention Locke’s mortal coil), that’s going to make for a very interesting conversation. Sun isn’t playing, now. She’s going to make O-Ren Ishii look like a pussycat before this is over.

I'm not yet convinced that Ben actually ceded leadership to Locke. I thought Ben's parting comment to Locke, "I'm sorry I ruined your life" was very strange because, well...how did Ben ruin Locke's life?

If the island or Jacob chose Locke, if Locke has been monitored since his birth by Alpert, then what has Ben done to ruin Locke's life? Whatever it is...it's why I'm not convinced that Ben ceded leadership to Locke.

Although it just occured to me that because Ben is older than Locke, because both were born prematurely to mothers named Emily, perhaps "ruining" Locke's life has something to so with Ben being born first and so chosen over Locke. So for most of his life that relegated Locke, a man who desperately wants not to be ordinary, to the position of "leader in waiting". Rather like the Prince of Wales or the vice president, the difference being that Locke didn't know he was in line so he couldn't even console himself with "He also serves who only sits and waits."

With regard to Sun: Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned!

I'm thinking about old stuff:

Alais: I have also wondered about the funeral of the woman Sun shot and the burning of her remains.

Does the fact that The Others didn't burn the dead from the Great Massacree give us a hint?TPTB made a point of showing the survivors burning their dead in the fuselage. That is a fundmental health issue so it is odd not to see measures taken to prevent the spread of disease. At the very least, one would expect that they would have tossed the dirt from the hole on top of them for a huge burial mound because even if The Others have no concerns for their health, hundreds of rotting corpses constitute a mighty affront to the senses.

Does it have something to do with time travel and a vessel for one's consciousness to leap into? Maybe (as Tom suggested while he was in NY) some people can do it and some people can't do it? Could the burning of Sun's victim's body indicate she couldn't time leap so why not burn her body OR she could time leap so let's prevent her from leaping back here?

Or maybe it's as simple as this: She was a Buddhist... founding member of the Island Buddhist Reform Temple.

I suggested that Jacob's problem might be that he once time lept to discover that the statistically unthinkable happened...both bodies died simultaneously while he was mid leap so his consciousness is without corporeal form. Maybe Aaron is the corporeal form that Jacob needs to be physically present again. His reincarnation of sorts. Maybe that is why those 6 must return to the island, they are all "reincarnations" of people the island needs.

Ben let them leave to prevent the possibility of their bodies being incinerated if Keamy was able to execute the 2nd protocol. Ben always has a plan...in the event he was prevented from moving the island he had to have a fail safe. So he changed his "they can not leave the island" to "they must be protected; get them off the island for now and I'll sort it out later."

Ben's "So?" response to the deaths of the people on the freighter makes sense if Ben was aware that if Keamy hadn't been killed and the 2nd protocol was executed a whole lot worse would have happened.

Although Ben knows that Hurley saw the cabin, he doesn't know that Hurley saw Jacob, so Hurley wasn't in the running for Interim Leader; as a consequence, Hurley was free to leave the island. Ben knew Jack would leave, so he was free to ask Jack to stay to make Locke think that Ben was on the same page as Locke.
In fact, Ben and Locke aren't even reading the same book.

Poor Locke...catsbarf,next door at Mac's house, said she thought Locke was "being used for his kidney" again, metaphorically speaking. I think so too. "John, we need you for a wee bit and then you will be discarded." Because fate is fickle bitch.
____________________

What about the pushing or not pushing of that button? Dharma wanted it pushed but it appears as though Ben wasn't particularly invested in its being pushed. Was its pushing associated with a satellite signal sent every 108 minutes to the off island Dharma Initiative?

As long as the signal was being sent Dharma knew (or thought they knew) that they still had a faction in place on the island; that's why they continued to send supply drops. That's why Ben didn't care that it was being sent because it provided supplies and it held a Dharma investigation at bay. But when OA815 crashed, Ben knew that the ruse was over, pushing the button no longer served any purpose for the island so he figured, let's go ahead and cut that annoying tether. And that is when Widmore "misplaced" the island.
___________________

With regard to Mizzed's musings (see my above post): He said, "Clearly, there are two competing forces here, both with some level of supernatural ability to communicate to the Oceanic 6, whether in dreams or as "ghosts".

I don't think the emphasis should be on the competing forces' supernatural ability to communicate with the OA6. Rather, I think the emphasis should be on the OA6's ability to perceive the messages. That's what sets them apart from all the other survivors.

With regard to psychic phenomenon: Information is out there all the time but it is only a rare few among us who can actually pick up the signal. Lots of people pretend they can pick up the signals, but in truth, most of them are frauds.
____________________________

So now I want to know how many factions are involved and who is with each faction.

I feel like we have all the strings to figure it out right now but I can't untangle the damned knots.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: undaunted,

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:

I'm not yet convinced that Ben actually ceded leadership to Locke.

I agree that Ben did not really cede leadership authority to Locke, but it’s probably going to turn out to be more complicated than that.

As the flashbacks have revealed, Richard Alpert travels freely to and from the island, and never ages. Whatever else is true about Ben, he doesn’t seem to possess these powers. RA was hovering over Locke since the day he was born, was instrumental in the events that allowed Ben to annihilate the Dharma people, and was the man who showed Locke what he needed to know to pass Ben’s test. I think Ben sincerely believes he’s the man in charge and that RA is his trusted lieutenant, but it’s RA who is pulling all the strings.

I believe it will eventually turn out that when RA welcomes Locke into the Other camp as their new leader, he’s really just fitting a new puppet for his strings.

quote:

Originally posted by Deep Cover:

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:

I'm not yet convinced that Ben actually ceded leadership to Locke.

I agree that Ben did not really cede leadership authority to Locke, but it’s probably going to turn out to be more complicated than that.

As the flashbacks have revealed, Richard Alpert travels freely to and from the island, and never ages. Whatever else is true about Ben, he doesn’t seem to possess these powers. RA was hovering over Locke since the day he was born, was instrumental in the events that allowed Ben to annihilate the Dharma people, and was the man who showed Locke what he needed to know to pass Ben’s test. I think Ben sincerely believes he’s the man in charge and that RA is his trusted lieutenant, but it’s RA who is pulling all the strings.

I believe it will eventually turn out that when RA welcomes Locke into the Other camp as their new leader, he’s really just fitting a new puppet for his strings.

I agree that Ben believes that Locke was chosen to sit on the throne. But I do not think that Ben will acquiesce to Locke, just as Alpert will not acquiesce to Locke.

Irony: Locke, the lover of games of strategy, is merely a pawn.

Hi, Dauntless. You are still keeping at it. I have been posting a couple of times over at the Mac blog but it frustrates me some because of the novellas some people write.

How long do you think posting can continue with the long delay ahead of us? I will miss everyone.

Well Carl, our postings will continue just a bit longer if you continue to double post!

I decided to post back over here because I'm a homebody. Although there are some great postings over there, I prefer my less contentious filmfodder family to the hub-bub of the folks next door.

I think we should start a Hiatus Musings thread dedicated to books and movies we are enjoying while we wait.

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:
Well Carl, our postings will continue just a bit longer if you continue to double post!

I decided to post back over here because I'm a homebody. Although there are some great postings over there, I prefer my less contentious filmfodder family to the hub-bub of the folks next door.

I think we should start a Hiatus Musings thread dedicated to books and movies we are enjoying while we wait.

What double post?

Yes, I think that's a good idea. Places we've been, things we've done.

It will be interesting to see how many people we can involve.



And yes, I feel like I know (and enjoy) people here. Over at Mac's forum it seems to be more of a contest atmosphere. This is much more comfy.

I'm still here every day at least two-three times...definitely a different atmosphere from "mac's house." I like keeping up w/you all!

I don't know how many of you saw the TV Guide w/LOST as its cover story, but the story included a timeline of what the writers of the article think is the correct order of the post-rescue flashforwards:

Early 2005:
O6 leave the island.

Summer 2005:
Sun & Hurley visit Jin's gravestone.

October 2005:
Sayid kills Ismael Bakir, who he believes is the man who killed Nadia.

Fall 2005(?):
Ben visits Charles in the middle of the night.

Fall 2005:
Sayid kills Mr. Avellino on the golf course.
Hurley sees Charlie.
Jack visits Hurley at Santa Rosa.

2006:
Jack testifies at Kate's trial.

Fall 2007:
Jack & Kate's brief engagement.

Late 2007:
Jack attempts suicide by jumping off the highway bridge.
Jack visits the Hoffs-Drawlar funeral home.
Jack tells Kate that they all need to go back to the island. Kate refuses.

I'm still here everyday too. Thanks for the timeline, it's helpful. I was thinking about Richard Alpert and I'm worried that Locke is in for a big surprise. Maybe he'll realize that everyone in the others group are dead and he is the leader of zombies or something but I feel, like other posters at Mac's place, that Bens apology was more of a prophesy.I also think once Locke gets to the others camp he'll be strung along. Alpert knows Locke didn't kill his father because he couldn't for whatever reason so I think he knows he can control him.
Anyway... I would love to pass the time by talking about books etc. I just bought The Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey Niffenegger,it is a total coincidence I think! I love it back here, good to see everyone!

quote:

Originally posted by undaunted:
Well Carl, our postings will continue just a bit longer if you continue to double post!

I decided to post back over here because I'm a homebody. Although there are some great postings over there, I prefer my less contentious filmfodder family to the hub-bub of the folks next door.

I think we should start a Hiatus Musings thread dedicated to books and movies we are enjoying while we wait.

Ah, but Uberwoman, it is you and Alaïs who are double-posted. PC wrote all new thoughts, except for a brief mention of the crowbar. (BTW, pc, I loved your analysis of the freighter explosion. It's like having our own Mythbuster right here on the forum.)

Yes, it's a different atmosphere over there. Competition to post first, post drunkest & write the funniest poem is fierce. The real problem is the narrow-column format that makes it hard to read anything over 3 sentences.

The Ben/Locke dynamic interests me. Ben always has the upper hand because he has more knowledge, therefore, more power. Locke knows he needs information, but he relies on Ben to provide it. Locke is so intent on following his "faith" that he neglects to act on anything. He needed to be exploring & finding out everything he could without waiting to be spoon-fed lies. He knows Ben manipulates him, but continues to fall for the same transparent tricks.

quote:

Originally posted by islander:
I just bought The Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey Niffenegger,it is a total coincidence I think!

Awesome book, in my opinion. Read it twice & found it easier to understand the second time. The section headings giving the ages of the characters (& I forget if they give the date too) are very helpful. Enjoy!